Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it  

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

That sucks 🙁 Join the club though really. It didn't burn through on mine, but I hadn't even got to print anything. Received the fully assembled until, did the Z calib as per manual, and bang, right into the bed.

Good luck getting to the bottom of it because my post about it has been devoid of replies from anyone at Prusa.

Richie.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Peter

That is a strange position for that to happen. Looks as though the X axis was homed but not the Y axis before the printer attempted to home Z.

Unfortunately, there are only 9 points in the bed where the probe actually triggers correctly and using AutoHome it should find the first of the 9 points.

Can you remember if the Y motor turned and/or skipped after you selected AutoHome? Just to be sure, can you check the tightness of the small grub screws on the Y pulley and ensure that one of the screws is on the flat of the motor spindle.

Peter

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Heh, welcome to the club.

I think we should have jackets or at least patches for the Damaged Bed Club, although your damage is quite exquisite.

That's a keeper right there, I don't care what anybody says.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

@PJR Yes, the pulley is fine and yes one of the screws is resting on the flat side of the pulley. The power was kept on all of the time I was doing this. I would have thought the printer would keep track of the head position when you are moving it around using the menus. The only thing that is a possibility is that octoprint could have connected to the printer. When it does this, the display flashes with squares. I don't know if this somehow resets the printer when something is connected via USB and thus the printer loses track of where it was.

I knew the PINDA sensor had calibration points but didn't realise it couldn't sense distance anywhere else other than those 9 points.

@richard.s I had this when I first switched my printer on (I bought the Kit) - the head crashed into the board, luckily it just left dents in it rather than burnt through it that time. (This was firmware 3.0.7). This was because the height of the PINDA probe during assembly didnt matter then the assembly documentation just states that it will be done later. (Section 5, Step 22) http://manual.prusa3d.com/Guide/5.+Extruder+Assembly/114#s1820 (Aligning it as per the suggestion there was just WAY out). This should be somewhere in the assembly instructions as well as in the manual.

It is a little weird that you go through the assembly instructions then it switches to a PDF manual. It should be more of a natural progression after the build, like an extra chapter for calibration as it's such an important part of it. I see the documentation has been updated with more warnings lately since I built my printer which is nice to see.

These forums don't seem to get much attention from the staff at Prusa Research other than announcements. They seem to be more community driven than anything. The online chat is good but this type of support can become disjointed if there is a longer running problem which requires back and forth, there could really do with being a ticket system which keeps track of an issue and all communication for a problem. I'm sure it will get to that fairly soon as the number of chats becomes unmanageable. I work for a tech company which has had rapid growth so i've seen first hand the phases that these sorts of things go through.

Josef has done an amazing job creating the printers and then forming a company with all the infrastructure, employees, documentation and online chat/support. It's really great to see how the 3d printing industry is developing. It does remind me of the 80's somewhat when personal computers were in their infancy.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Good point above. peter.r6 Relying on user support and so called Pros's is not the way. A ticket and issue system should be set up.
I've seen some rubbish advice from the so called Pro's that could result in permanent damage to the printer.

Some who have been made Pro's feel they need to comment on every post, it goes to there heads and they feel the need to post on every subject, they say it is a burden they bear, mostly helpful but sometimes a comment too far that can cause damage.

A proper system for issues should be ticketed and responded to from Prusa Research.

The Prusa I3 MK2 is one of the best 3D printers in the world. I had some issues but I overcame them. ie a bed crash that damaged the PEI in the top right corner. Overall now the MK2 Prusa I3 is my best and goto 3d printer. Unless I am printing small parts overnight, and then I use my Fabrikator Mini 🙂

I use a paid for slicer program that works very well across five of my 3D printers. The sixth, the Fabrikator Mini uses an Octopi and Octoprint to control it and Repetier Host for slicing.

Tonight 3 different models of 3D printer running. My homebuilt Prusa I3 Mk2, and homebuilt Kossel Mini with Duet 32bit electronics and my Hobbyking Fabrikator Mini.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

We are having the same feedback from a lot of users about problems, I was there once too. It is community based at the moment. It was only last week Prusa actually made some moderators on the forum!
These are not Prusa staff though but happy customers so although perfect for helping here in the community they can only do their best to advise and help.

You need to get on social media and just let Josef know he needs a ticket system 😉 Your prob get more of a result then here but a ticket system is exactly the best plan for Prusa staff. With only one email address it must get very confusing for them.

You will get tons on help and advise here so the idea is we all try and help each other before Prusa has time to help you out personally.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Ben one advantage of buying a pre-built printer is that you are entitled to full support. Kit-bought printers are forum only.

Peter

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

I agree the issue is "kit built" folk are not offered the same level of support, understandably. What cannot be denied at this point is that it seems to be a "real" issue, as in, it is more than a one or two times issue that warrants further investigation by Prusa. I would think at this point it is not just a simple "oh, this was kit-built so they probably did something wrong" - not that anyone is directly saying that but I'm sure it has been thought more than once.
It would be nice to see some stats on the issue though like: How many kit-built has this happened on in total? How many factory-built has this happened on in total? Are there any similarities in the kit-built as to exactly how/when this happened? Is it possible that there needs to be a change in the procedure for calibration? Or a change in the build procedure steps?
Maybe as a safety step put down like a 2mm sheet of Lexan when first turning it on to protect the bed from a kamikazi nozzle. 🙂

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Prepare Google poll, post link here, will get some stats.
My kit is behaving well, no PEI related issues or crashing.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

😆 I saw Peters reply and thought better of it so did not reply. I am so glad to see others stepping up like I did early on in the bed problem to that exact problem with Prusa and the support.

I have just deleted a massive post as its just not worth it. Those who have not had problems fair play and lucky you. You cant help if you cant post a beneficial comment. 😉

I think theres a fair amount of unhappy customers. Although I am a happy customer theres still a few parts I could comment negatively on 😉 Support being one of them.

Lets go buy a brand new car but not buy one with Air conditioning. Because we did not buy the model with Air conditioning we do not get the same support. Sorry but that is absolute bollox and Prusa should be ashamed. 😡

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Ouch Peter.r6, that is a nasty hole! I can understand your frustration! If you bought your Printer as Pre-assembled then you are entitled to full support from Prusa via the chat and email, if you bought it as a kit (or the upgrade kit) your first port of call for support is these here forums. Then if it's deemed a manufacturing fault then contact Prusa Research again via the chat and or email (giving them a link to the post on the forum).

This head crashing does seem to be a problem, and hopefully Prusa Research are compiling data on it to try to suss out the cause once and for all. The problem are probably having is there are so many different things that could cause it, some user error, some software error (bug) and some manufacturing problems. Just to list a few:

As you can imagine it is going to take a lot of diagnostic work to diagnose which case applies to each user with a problem, if there is a pattern or not, and if so can a common source be found and fixed?

Unfortunately, us moderators are not privy to any inside information at all so it is only when Josef or another member of staff looks here that they can intercede in a problem and, or give out facts and figures.

The forums are community driven and that was an active decision by Prusa Research so people who bought the 'unsuppported' kit version could get help a bit easier than having to go to reddit or facebook groups. It also means you do get the occasional help from a Prusa Research member of staff as a bonus. If you feel an issue is a result of manufacturing or design error you are free to escalate it via the chat or email, regardless if you bought the kit or pre-assembled.

Merv, please don't think we have had power go to our heads as that is not the case, those of us who were made moderators were the one's who tried to help the most, and we are not experts in the field or Prusa printers just knowledgeable users. We try to give what advice we can where we can and it is up to the user to take it or leave it as they wish ultimately. As for advice that we give causing damage, well any advice could cause damage in theory and if you think some advice we give is dangerous then point it out in that thread, with an explanation as well, that way we can all learn... Remember we are unpaid helpers with no perks and no ties to Prusa Research, just ordinary people trying to help others as best we can. I for one do not say it's a burden to moderate here, I do it when I feel able and that's it, I enjoy helping others. I'm sure it's the same for the others. Remember there are 3 user moderators and 3 staff Administrators. Plus the odd other member of staff who pops in to help or share information.

I would recommend those who have damage to the actual heatbed contact Prusa directly and explain to them what happened and see if you are eligible for a replacement under warranty. If it's just the PEI sheet then it will depend on how badly damaged it is as well as just minor scuffs will not affect printing. Frustrating I know but just one of those things.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Ben

I totally agree with you, but that is not my ruling; it's part of the deal when you buy a kit.

However, with that being said, I have 2 kits; the Mk1 and Mk2 and I have used both the Live Chat and email and received OK support. In the early days, there were a couple of emails that did not receive a timely reply, but at that time there was a limited number of support staff.

And if you look back at some of my very early posts, you will see comments relating to the poor forum responses as well, including asking what was meant by "official support forum" - and no, that didn't get a reply...

Like you, I have been through "the mill". I did struggle early on, but I took a step back and realised that all this would not be possible without Josef and people like him. He is a young man, learning about business and making mistakes on the way (been there, done that etc...).

I have no allegiance to Josef nor Prusa Research; what I do have is a great deal of respect for him, his company and what he has achieved.

I really do try to have a balance in my posts and on occasion I do make mistakes for which I can only apologise. But the bottom line is simply that I am trying hard to support Josef, which may sometimes bring some bias into my responses.

Peter

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

😆 I saw Peters reply and thought better of it so did not reply. I am so glad to see others stepping up like I did early on in the bed problem to that exact problem with Prusa and the support.

I have just deleted a massive post as its just not worth it. Those who have not had problems fair play and lucky you. You cant help if you cant post a beneficial comment. 😉

I think theres a fair amount of unhappy customers. Although I am a happy customer theres still a few parts I could comment negatively on 😉 Support being one of them.

Lets go buy a brand new car but not buy one with Air conditioning. Because we did not buy the model with Air conditioning we do not get the same support. Sorry but that is absolute bollox and Prusa should be ashamed. 😡

Firstly, I think that Prusa's support are very good overall, but there does seem to be a couple of specific issues that could do with improving based on the feedback on these forums, head crashes seeming to be one of them. It must be very frustrating. I like you Ben have been very lucky over all, but when my wife and her friends first built the MK1 as a gift for me (early Xmas present) they had several problems but Prusa were very helpful to them (and me once I got involved) and supplied several replacement parts. I would recommend that anyone who feels that the problem they have experienced is caused by manufacturing error or a design fault should contact Prusa direct by chat, email or even both. Hopefully Prusa will have an official response and cure for this head crashing soon! (No I don't have any insider info, sorry).

There are points that could be improved on and you could always email your opinions as they do listen.

Your car analogy is not right for the issue here, as they do give support to the Factory built car, and the 'air con' unit (I assume you mean the upgrade kit is supplied as a kit with limited liability). The analogy is more like this:

Lets go buy a brand new car but as a kit and build it yourself, because we did not buy it factory built we do not get the same support.

OR

Let's go buy a car (kit or factory built) and then buy the kit to add an air conditioner (that requires the car to be disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up by yourself), because we did not buy it factory built we do not get the same support.

I would argue that both of those statements are justified and is not "bollox"...

If it is a pre-assembled printer then you entitled to full support as you've paid for that assembly and it has to be correct'y done. If you buy just a kit (which does mention it doesn't include full support) then you are entitled to only parts warranty. Prusa are actually quite generous in the amount of support they extend to kit builders!

Depending on where you live's (and the Czech Rebublic's/Europe's) laws you may be entitled to full support for manufacturing defects and design errors)...

I think the problems and tantrums on here are caused by a fundamental misunderstanding of the support levels and consumer rights laws. This is what is offered:

I've dealt with companies before that will send you a pre-made product and won't even consider giving you a refund/replacement even if it's broken straight out the box and the law allows me no recourse... So Prusa are doing a pretty good job I think!

It's all to easy to start shouting abuse when things don't go our way (gawd knows I've done it myself), but it's best to keep calm as the old saying is still very true “You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar”! 😀

Let's not start more rows about individuals or moderators and staff, as a group, keep it 'civilised'...

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Now, getting back to the issue at hand, has anyone noticed a common theme amongst the people reporting head crashes?

ANY information will help both Prusa Research and us other users track down the cause and help everyone!

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

MK1 support was no doubt excellent and floorless. First business always is.
We now have a world wide multi million pound company and they have this as support. Sorry but makes no sense what so ever.

There need to be clear advertisement that the ONLY support is Forum support on the kit advert. At the moment its a selling point that they have a support forum. All lovely till you need support.

So your saying the car one is nothing like Prusa? Everything is made in a factory and shipped to me. I buy a computer and need to connect it all up. I need to install software to make it work too. Guess what, Its all covered by support. I buy a tv. I need to fit the legs. I buy a printer (normal laser jet guys) and I have to fit the ink and fit the paper tray. All made in a factory, all not fully built in some form or another but still come with full support.

Theres no abuse being shouted unless I missed something. I just speak my mind sometimes, especially on Prusa support. It sucks. Plain and simple. Some have great dealings and most bad. I would expect better from a company and stature that Prusa currently holds.

The machine when fit and running is an absolute gem and I praise with tons of respect Josef's efforts in every way shape or form. I bow to that man.

The fact Prusa has crap support has nothing to do with me not supporting Josef. He is young. He has been in business a while now so he should be getting his act together when it comes to support. God blimey it really is the ONLY thing that is letting them down.

Now I am not abusing or shouting at anyone 😕 Certainly not bringing you guys in, simply stating you do all you can but its only to cover up a hole.

I will continue if yall want to. I can talk for ages about Prusa support. 😆 Honestly that is my only problem with Prusa. Not josef or the machine. That can be fix one way or another. I am just speaking for a lot of people that dont speak up. 🙄

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

The way I look at it, I was going to build a reprap, open source kit. Most other options had no dedicated forums and shoddy documentation. As someone new to 3d printing, I needed an option that was a little easier to get into than most. So the fact that I can actually do online chat with Prusa, that is a bonus! 🙂

I think everyone is going to have different expectations, and for some, the support is better than expected, and for others, it's worse than expected. That's the way with everything I guess, but the difference is that these conversations are public. That's a great thing, because it helps people set their expectations before they buy. You should almost have to check a box that you've read through them before purchase. 😉

As for the crashing nozzle, I feel "lucky" that it happened to me upon the first calibration. It fortunately gouged the edge of the print area and not inside. That experience gave me a healthy skepticism. I NEVER expect that the printer knows where it is unless it runs the print start routine. So far it has worked for me! I only move the nozzle using the move x/y/z commands, and I will often notice that it has an incorrect coordinate registered.

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

MK1 support was no doubt excellent and floorless. First business always is.
We now have a world wide multi million pound company and they have this as support. Sorry but makes no sense what so ever.

I very much doubt that they are a multimillion pound company yet! I bet that'll give Josef a laugh! 😆

There need to be clear advertisement that the ONLY support is Forum support on the kit advert. At the moment its a selling point that they have a support forum. All lovely till you need support.

Yes I agree it could do with making clearer and being more prominent on the product pages.

So your saying the car one is nothing like Prusa? Everything is made in a factory and shipped to me. I buy a computer and need to connect it all up. I need to install software to make it work too. Guess what, Its all covered by support. I buy a tv. I need to fit the legs. I buy a printer (normal laser jet guys) and I have to fit the ink and fit the paper tray. All made in a factory, all not fully built in some form or another but still come with full support.

I think we are talking at cross purposes again. The pre-built printer is just like buying a TV, car or inkjet... and yes that is covered by Full Support by Prusa (the printer not the car, TV and inkjet 🙂 )... The kit is more akin to buying a kit car or an IKEA flat pack furniture... IKEA is not going to offer as much support to a flat pack product as they do to a factory assembled wardrobe. They will officially offer parts warranty bit unofficially try to help if they can, but they will want clear proof that you didn't cause the damage yourself... which is what Prusa does with the kits... That is fair and reasonable, and pretty much in line with every other company.

Theres no abuse being shouted unless I missed something. I just speak my mind sometimes, especially on Prusa support. It sucks. Plain and simple. Some have great dealings and most bad. I would expect better from a company and stature that Prusa currently holds.

I was referring just to people who make claims like we moderators are power crazy, and that Prusa are useless, etc. I'm trying to keep things civil on here if I can. This is where we disagree and you are making generalisations and stating your opinion as though it is proven fact. You feel there is a flaw with the support, as do some others, where as there are many such as myself and PJR who feel that it is great. They have always answered any queries I have promptly and fairly, even if I think that some things could be done different. In fact I'm quite show statistics would show that most people are perfectly happy with the product and the support they get.

The machine when fit and running is an absolute gem and I praise with tons of respect Josef's efforts in every way shape or form. I bow to that man.

I couldn't agree more, but I am also not blind to anybodies flaws as well...

The fact Prusa has crap support has nothing to do with me not supporting Josef. He is young. He has been in business a while now so he should be getting his act together when it comes to support. God blimey it really is the ONLY thing that is letting them down.

Now you see this really is where we disagree and you are making generalisations and stating your opinion as though it is proven fact. You feel there is a flaw with the support, as do some others, where as there are many such as myself and PJR who feel that it is great. They have always answered any queries I have promptly and fairly, even if I think that some things could be done different.

Now I am not abusing or shouting at anyone 😕 Certainly not bringing you guys in, simply stating you do all you can but its only to cover up a hole.

As I said I wasn't picking you out Ben...

I will continue if yall want to. I can talk for ages about Prusa support. 😆 Honestly that is my only problem with Prusa. Not josef or the machine. That can be fix one way or another. I am just speaking for a lot of people that dont speak up. 🙄

No thank you, you've made your point. You are perfectly entitled to hold that opinion, but don't profess to speak for others when you don't actually have facts to back it up... For all you or I know there maybe just the relatively few people on here who have had problems or 99% of people might have... I don't know and you don't know so it isn't right for you to make such claims.

I am sure Josef and his team are well aware how upset some people are, and they are probably doing all they can to resolve the issues, or they will be when they get back from their 3 days in Ibiza! 😆 I know!! People needing help and they're swanning about and clubbing! The nerve! 😆 😆

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

Once again we have derailed someone's thread so I ask nicely that everyone get back on topic and leave you all with the following information request.

Has anyone noticed a common theme amongst the people reporting head crashes?

ANY information will help both Prusa Research and us other users track down the cause and help everyone!

Re: Hotend crashed into PEI and burnt a hole through it

So what, if any, is the tip for possibly avoiding this issue? My kit is on its way, will arrive Friday, this is my first Prusa but my second 3D printer.
Since this has happened to more than a few people I'm guessing there must be some common thread as to when/how it happens?
Such as maybe something that should be explicitly explained in the build instructions or calibration instructions? Such as "do NOT do step X before you first complete step Y" or something like that? Any ideas?

The Mangled Bed Club is a club I would prefer to not have a membership in if I can avoid it! 🙂