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1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
First layer suddenly too high for one tool

I have had some great success with my XL5T and recently moved to all .4mm nozzles and find that to be awesome. In order to do some large volume, chunky prints I changed one tool back to a .6mm nozzle. My first print with the .6mm nozzle went just fine, I didn't even bother to recalibrate. I tried a second model and for some reason that tool, and only that tool, now starts each print about 1mm high. I have no explanation and cannot seem to get that one nozzle to print properly. I'm looking for some help on diagnosing the problem or how to tune this problem out. Any help is appreciated. 

Things I have tried:

  • Live adjusting the Z height: Since the offset is so high I can't turn the adjustment far enough to save the print. When I get the height tuned I cancel the print and restart it only to have the same problem again. 
  • Reslicing the file: I have tried different models and moving the models around the print bed. Nothing seems to help. These are the same settings I used for the successful print. 
  • Recalibrating all tools: This completed with no issues. Test prints on the .4mm nozzles went just fine.

Things that might be contributing that I can't find a clean way to rule out:

  • Newest firmware - I updated to the 5.1.2 (I think that's what it was) but the first print was on this firmware and went well
  • Newest slicer - I updated to 2.7.1 somewhere in the mix but I can't recall exactly when. To make things worse, I adjust the settings so frequently due to filament changes and the nozzle changes I have lost track of what was what. Prusa Slicer doesn't exactly make profile management easy for multi tool setups. 
Posted : 22/12/2023 9:52 pm
Bruce
(@bruce-5)
Eminent Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

Maybe trying the tool offset calibration - annoyingly long :-), but worth a try ...

Posted : 23/12/2023 1:35 am
Bruce
(@bruce-5)
Eminent Member
RE:

Wait, I see you did say you tried recalibrating, sorry I missed that.  When you recalibrated the tools, I assume you mean the tool offset calibration.  Did you also re-run the Z calibration routine where it pushes to the top until it stops?  Maybe give that one a try.  I did have a single 0.4 nozzle in one time when the other 4 were 0.6 and mine seemed to work although that's opposite nozzles from what I think you said.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Bruce
Posted : 23/12/2023 1:36 am
1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

Update: I have had some improvement with adjusting the temp for the PETG that I am currently using but I am still having issues that I can sum up in one statement, "What's the difference between 'Live Z adjust' and 'Z offset' in the menu?" When I adjust the "Live Z adjust" on a first layer it doesn't seem to retain any adjustments I have made between prints. Example scenario: I am printing 6 of the same objects. The offset is too high on the first object so I start turning down the Z level on subsequent parts. When restart the print its back to being significantly too high. Is the Live adjustment only meant to be 'per print' and not retained for the next print?

When I adjust the Z offset in the control menu it doesn't seem to help or match reality. If I see the print start ~ 1mm from the surface for a .32mm layer height I would think that I could subtract ~.6mm from that number to get close but any changes to that stored value don't seem to be reflected in the response from the machine. 

As a side note the dwell times for the heat soak make trouble shooting a huuuuuge PIA. I get that I want things to be consistent, especially with trouble shooting layer heights but this is just a massive time suck. I'm still upset that I don't know what changed in my setup that has resulted in such a problem. Any help or suggestions welcome. 

Posted : 26/12/2023 11:46 pm
1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

Appreciate the feedback. I have completed a full Tool offset calibration and Z calibration have been done since this started with not enough luck. Still trying to resolve the issue through trial and error. 

Posted : 26/12/2023 11:48 pm
BaconFase
(@baconfase)
Estimable Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

I guess you could try swapping the problematic tool with one of the others.

If the issue moves with the hardware then some actual thing is borked.

If the problem stays put then there's a bad setting somewhere.

 

As a side note the dwell times for the heat soak make trouble shooting a huuuuuge PIA

I assume you can just comment out some Starting G-code in Printer Settings to bypass that while you're testing. "G29 G ; absorb heat" maybe.

 

.Printables.

MK3S MMU2S, XL-5T

Posted : 27/12/2023 5:49 am
1Eye and Bruce liked
1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

My Printer currently sits out in the open and could probably use the extra time to heat up but it certainly does kill the pace of testing different changes.

Posted : 27/01/2024 7:04 pm
ssill2
(@ssill2)
Noble Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

so I found this out the hard way after changing from 0.6 to 0.4mm nozzles.  you MUST rerun the tool offset calibration.  if you'll notice when it prints, it only does the bed probe with the first tool(the one that prints on the bed first).  The rest of them  rely on the offset from the first.    You can prove this to yourself(and I did this) by slicing a print with five .2mm high squares, and setting each to print with one of the extruders.   run the print, watch the first square print perfectly fine, but potentially other ones don't get a good first layer.  For example let's say E1 layer one looks good but e2 doesn't.  Reslice and disable the E1, and allow the first extruder to print to be E2.   Print again.  you'll probably fine that E2 now gets a good first layer!   I was pulling my hair out.   So if you rerun the tool offset calibration that requires you to put the pin in the middle of the bed, it should fix it so that the offsets are all calibrated and rerunning the project that I just mentioned will give you clean layer one for all five squares.

Posted : 28/01/2024 7:11 pm
ssill2
(@ssill2)
Noble Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

My bad, I just caught that you had run the tool offset calibration.   That fixed my problem.   have you had any more luck?

Posted : 28/01/2024 7:15 pm
m00dawg
(@m00dawg)
Eminent Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

Little late to comment but I ran into this on my 2 head XL and found that the docks had some a bit loose. Tightening them back down and re-running the offset calibration remedied the issue for me.

Posted : 28/02/2024 11:48 pm
1Eye liked
1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

After re-running calibration (again) and several smaller prints this seems to have improved. I'm still stumped as to why it started. 

Posted : 29/02/2024 12:01 am
m00dawg liked
Marc
 Marc
(@marc-9)
Trusted Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

You really have to make sure that there is no filament loaded and nozzles are perfectly clean when you run the offset-calibration. I had issues when they haven't been perfetly clean.

Some other things to check:

  • Make sure that the nozzles are as far in the print head as possible.
  • Make sure that the screw which holds the nozzles is tight (but not overtight!)
  • Make sure that the nozzles are tight in the heater block.
  • If you use ObXidian 1.5Nm for screwing them in the heater-block is NOT sufficient! I used 3Nm and they are still not as tight after tightening and printing as they have been before the print. (Already informed support about that.)
Posted : 29/02/2024 11:45 am
Acht liked
1Eye
 1Eye
(@1eye)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

RE the ObXidian nozzles, that's good to know. I've had 5 in place for a couple months now and should probably check their seating. Thx Marc.

Posted : 29/02/2024 12:40 pm
ntdesign
(@ntdesign)
Reputable Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

That's weird. I only hand-tightened my Obxidians, been printing non-stop with all tools for several weeks with zero issues. @1eye, is your nozzle grub screw tight enough?

Posted : 29/02/2024 3:43 pm
Marc
 Marc
(@marc-9)
Trusted Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

hand-tightened

Well... ask five people and you'll get ten results for how much is hand-tight in reproducable and measurable units. 🤣 
I generally try to use defined torque values when ever possible. Expecially if written so in a documentation. 

In regard to the issue @1Eye mentioned there should be no difference if the nozzle is tight or lose in the heater block. The only effect will be a decreased heat transfer to the nozzle. But even if the nozzle is lose it will not affect the level of the nozzle because the nozzle is directly held in the print head via grup screw. I just wanted to mention it because it can affect the print quality if the heat transfer to the nozzle is not as it should be. And if you have an issue there, everything should be checked.
The seating of the nozzle itself in the print head and the grup screw which holds the nozzle have an impact on the issue @1Eye mentioned. 

Posted : 29/02/2024 5:05 pm
1Eye liked
EastMemphis
(@eastmemphis)
Estimable Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

But even if the nozzle is lose it will not affect the level of the nozzle because the nozzle is directly held in the print head via grup screw.

I've assembled a number of Nextruder heat blocks and not one had a grub screw on the nozzle. There are two on the heater and one on the thermistor. Do you have a different heat block?

Printables: https://www.printables.com/@EastMemphis_905139/models

Posted : 29/02/2024 5:54 pm
Marc
 Marc
(@marc-9)
Trusted Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

I'm refering to this screw:

https://help.prusa3d.com/de/guide/auswechseln-der-prusa-duse-xl-multikopf_506481#506872

Posted : 29/02/2024 6:56 pm
EastMemphis
(@eastmemphis)
Estimable Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

I see. That's the grub screw that holds the heat block to the Nextruder, not a grub screw that holds the nozzle into the heat block. Sorry. My mistake.

Posted by: @marc-9

I'm refering to this screw:

https://help.prusa3d.com/de/guide/auswechseln-der-prusa-duse-xl-multikopf_506481#506872

 

Printables: https://www.printables.com/@EastMemphis_905139/models

Posted : 29/02/2024 7:06 pm
Marc
 Marc
(@marc-9)
Trusted Member
RE: First layer suddenly too high for one tool

grub screw that holds the heat block to the Nextruder

It holds the nozzle in the Nextruder. The nozzle on the other hand is screwed into or through the heat block. 

Posted : 29/02/2024 7:14 pm
EastMemphis
(@eastmemphis)
Estimable Member
RE:

Yes, of course. You'd think as an engineer I could be precise. Maybe "heat block assembly" would be even better.

Posted by: @marc-9

grub screw that holds the heat block to the Nextruder

It holds the nozzle in the Nextruder. The nozzle on the other hand is screwed into or through the heat block. 

 

Printables: https://www.printables.com/@EastMemphis_905139/models

Posted : 29/02/2024 7:23 pm
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