Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed
 
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johannes__lange
(@johannes__lange)
Active Member
Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Hey all,

I'm trying to print a small cone with tip, using the spiral vase mode of the PrusaSlicer 2.5.0.

The printing works well, except for the tip, which is "melted".

So I tried to change the speed for the print moves for the last 10mm by adding a "hight range modifier" with a slower speed. But after this I get the following error message "The Spiral Vase option can only be used when printing single material objects."

Are there any ideas to fix the problem? Or is there a better way than spiral vase to print the cone?

Thanks.

Posted : 23/11/2022 8:39 pm
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

That's correct.  For many modifier settings the slicer in effect splits them into different volumes, its has to to process them, its what causes people to report issues with extra perimeters etc, they just don't understand the limitations of modifiers. 
As vase only works with single volumes you can't do that so it gives you the warning.

Anyway for melted small tips printing slower is sometimes not the answer.  Without your project file to check anything is guesswork but once layer printing time drops below the threshold configured in the filament settings the print already slows down.  This means the hot nozzle stays in the small area too long.  You can often get better results by NOT letting it slow down on small areas.  

Under filament settings>Cooling>Slowdown if layer print time is below change that to something very small like 2-3 seconds.  Then also change the Min print Speed in that same section to match your normal small perimeters speed.  Those settings are red so you must be in expert mode to see them. 
Then give it a try.

As its not a modifier there should be no warning about using vase mode.

If you want to attach a saved project so people can examine your settings then just File>Save Project as from PS.  Take the resulting .3mf project file and ZIP it up.  Then attach the zip file to a reply here.  It must be zipped or the forum wont accept the file.  With a project it saves not only the model but all the settings you are currently using, any modifiers, colour changes, etc etc.  Its basically a full snapshot and allows anyone to slice it exactly as you are doing.  We can then examine the slice preview using all the tools available.  Its the best way to get help.

Posted : 23/11/2022 9:59 pm
johannes__lange
(@johannes__lange)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Hello Neophyl,

thank you for the answer. I will play with the "Cooling" settings and give feedback.

In the meantime, here is my current project file (without changed "Cooling" settings).LargeCone.zip

Thanks

Posted : 24/11/2022 1:10 pm
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Thanks for attaching a project.  If I get time this evening after work I'll try and print it after some tweaking to see what I can get.

Posted : 24/11/2022 1:39 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Moderator
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Looking at your .3mf file, 
No faults were initially highlighted, however when I sliced the model, there were two error messages for missing layers at the very top of the point.

I am using Prusa Slicer in Windows, so I right clicked on the model in 'editor view' and selected 'Fix with the Netfab' from the menu, 
then re sliced the model. 
this time the error message was not printed. 
BUT, I noticed that there were seam marks up the corner of the model. 

when I looked in the 'Layers and Perimeters menu, you had perimeters set to 2. 
Spiral vase mode cannot have more than one perimeter. so I switched to spiral vase mode, and accepted the suggestion to change to a single perimeter that Prusa slicer offered. 

then I noticed that your model had a hollow in the base,  this means that lower  layers cannot actually be Vase mode (the hollow is approximately 32 layers deep, (you can specify up to 32 bottom layers which will preserve the hole in the bottom, but not create a full bottom (Bridge) layer in the bottom of the model)), the hollow also  makes the first layer wall thickness too thin for the 0.42mm extrusion width

this can be resolved by 
1, using a smaller nozzle (which will address the first layer, but make the vase element of the model even thinner.),

2, revising the original model so that the wall thickness is greater

3, Cutting 0.5mm off the bottom of the model (which is just enough to remove the thinnest section)

4, using XY Size compensation with a value of 0.05mm or greater ( this will marginally change the dimensions of the model)

Single perimeter models can be fragile. to counter this you may wish to increase the external perimeter 'Extrusion Width' in Printer settings>Advanced menu
a 0.4mm nozzle should be easily able to print extrusion widths of 0.6, to 0.8mm, which will give a more robust model,  however using a larger extrusion width will cause issues with the first couple of layers because the model wall thickness will be too thin again... 

options 1, 2 & 4 Above, can resolve this, Option 3, would require a total of 1.0mm to be cut off the bottom of the model

LargeCone revised JT

As Neophyl mentioned slowing the print speed may be counter productive. 

You may wish to consider increasing the Part Fan speed, to promote better cooling at the higher levels (Currently it is limited to max speed of 50%) 

regards Joan

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK

Posted : 24/11/2022 4:16 pm
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Had a go at printing this.  Couldnt get the tip perfect but then again with the thinness and with it being vase mode so a single object I didn't expect it to be.  Normally for thin things you can print multiples spaced apart, this gives cooling time for each layer (but can introduce stringing issues if you don't have your filament tuned nicely).

Anyway, heres one printed at 15mm a second for external perimeters

and heres one at 25mm a second

In person the second one at 25mm looks a bit better, but will need a bit of post processing to smooth out.  

Like Joan also suggested I made a fair few tweaks to the project, such as 0.6mm perimeters (which helps with vase prints).  There's many others too.  Joan pointed out many of the issues, I got around the first layer by specifying a thinner extrusion width for the first layer as well as turning off the 0.2mm elephants foot that was causing that first layer to shrink.

I'll attach the 25mm a sec project here for your use.  If you load it be sure to check the printer and filament as I used my profiles for the printer and filament and not the ones you originally used.  The printer is a slightly modified MK3 so the start gcode is different to standard.  

Posted : 24/11/2022 7:11 pm
johannes__lange
(@johannes__lange)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Hello Joan,

thanks for analyzing my model. When I sliced the model, I didn't notice any error.

Printing in vase mode works well, except the tip.

I changed some settings regarding the cooling like Neophyl mentioned. And additionly I changed the fan speed to 100% from layer 330 to the top (the last 15mm).

But these changes make the result horrible, even at the bottom.

Posted : 24/11/2022 7:26 pm
johannes__lange
(@johannes__lange)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

@Neophyl

Sorry, I didn't see your reply until after I had already sent mine.

Posted : 24/11/2022 7:33 pm
johannes__lange
(@johannes__lange)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

You are right, printing multiple parts may be an option. I will try.

Posted : 24/11/2022 7:40 pm
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

Unfortunately you can't print multiples and use vase mode as that is only for single models.

Posted : 24/11/2022 8:33 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Moderator
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

can you try editing the Gcode just before the height that the print goes bad, and lower the extruder temperature by say 10 degrees (maybe 20 degrees which would put the extruder 10 degrees below the start temperature)?

Insert 
M104 S230; set extruder temp
(when the Z height is  about say 50mm)

regards Joan

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK

Posted : 24/11/2022 11:26 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Moderator
RE: Printing a cone in spiral vase mode - Problem to change speed

You could try cutting the original model at say 50mm, so that your model is only about 15mm tall 
and setting the first layer temp to be 230C as normal, and the other layers to be 220C, and see how the top prints at the lower temperature

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK

Posted : 24/11/2022 11:29 pm
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