printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Ive been printing for 2 years on 3 different printers and never had issues like im having now. Basically ive had my Mk3 for 7 months with zero issues, its been an awesome printer. For the first time last week i tried a huge 26 hour print and could not get the first layer to stick to the bed, so i tried all sorts of things to improve adhesion amoungst dialing the z-height and adding a dash of hair spray to the spring sheet (something ive never had to do). Anyway after 4 hours of no sucess i gave it up as a bad job, cleaned the spring sheet with mild soapy water, a small amount of acetone and IPA, this transformed it back to its orignal glory.
Anyway after this ive had every single print fail. ive been on forums for a week trying to solve the issue.
So far ive done the following;
*Changed nozzle.
*Cleaned sheet with mild soapy water, IPA and acetone. (It seems like new)
*Tried both sides of the steel sheet, one has been never used.
*spent +10 hours just with trying to get correct layer height, from non adhesion to extruder clicking from being too close (its like the sweet spot does not exsit)
*tried x3 different filament(including prusa filament and one brand ive been using for a year).
*done at least 3 full wizard system calibrations.
*tried various tightness of extruder bolts.
*tried different bed and hotend temps
I feel the next step is to order a new spring sheet but, im not convinced its that as one side is fresh and never been printed on!
Any help would be greatly appreicated as im struck as where to go now
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
If you are using a silicone sock, check it is not hanging down and interfering.
Otherwise: it's a classic dirty bed ... follow the Hot Water wash ... do NOT use your dish sponge or dish towel to clean with: use only FRESH paper towels. And it doesn't hurt to wash your hands before starting. Skin oils are nasty contaminants. Alcohol simply spreads oil into a microscopic layer. Acetone, too. Though alcohol and acetone have uses, they should not be your goto cleaning method.
Hot Water wash: often, as needed
Handle the bed only by the edges.
Wash the bed in hot water, use a fresh paper towel as a wash cloth, with a few drops of plain dish soap (Dawn, unscented, no anti-bacterial, etc.). Rinse well in hot water - if you have very soft water, rinse a bit longer.
Dry the bed with a fresh paper towel.
Handle the bed only by the edges.
Place bed on printer.
Alcohol rinse: every few prints
Once in a while, an alcohol rinse is helpful to remove PLA residue. It does not remove finger oils.
Pour a 5 cm puddle of 91%+ alcohol in the middle of the bed, with clean hands use a fresh paper towel to scrub the bed. Wipe up all the alcohol.
Streak test: when contamination is suspected
With a fresh piece of paper towel, and very clean fingers, dampen the towel with 91%+ alcohol, and wipe the bed side to side moving back to front, like you're painting it with alcohol. The alcohol should be thin enough on the towel it quickly evaporates. If you see any streaks, the bed is dirty and needs a wash.
Acetone wash: infrequent
Pour a 2 cm puddle of acetone on the bed, scrub it around with a fresh paper towel. It will evaporate fast as you clean. This step removes PEI oxides that form over time and with heat, and improves PLA adhesion to a like new state.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
I wonder what kind of soap have you used. A rather pure detergent is a must, there must be no oils or skin protecting agents in the soap. Some hand soaps even contain silicone oil which is a bane of adhesion. And you can't remove silicone oil that easily, that requires either a wash in an organic solvent or a strong degreaser.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
FYI: I just posted a few images in another thread:
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Thanks Tim-m30,
Ive cleaned the hell out of my bed, and while ive managed to get small successful prints, they are still failing :/
any ideas?
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Ive cleaned the hell out of my bed, and while ive managed to get small successful prints, they are still failing :/
any ideas?
It's very hard to make out much with the small pics, but it looks (to me at least) like your Live-Z is too low. That might make sense if you made hardware adjustments or possibly moved the unit recently. I find my Live-Z sometimes needs re-calibration after firmware updates.
The filament looks very thin as if the nozzle is too close to the bed on the 1st layer and it looks like the nozzle is snagging filament. If you have not already done so, try using Jeff Jordan's "Life Adjust" procedure for calibrating your Live-Z setting. It is much easier to use and understand than the on-board routine.
In general, it's always a good idea to clean the bed thoroughly (as you've done) then confirm Live-Z is correct. I've got some general notes and pics of what the Live-Z prints should look like here that may be helpful.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Thanks Tim-m30, Ive cleaned the hell out of my bed, and while ive managed to get small successful prints, they are still failing :/ any ideas?
The photo you posted shows two issues:
1) the z-offset is too low (layer one is too thin): ridges between extrusions seen here.
2) the bed is not very clean (plastic piling up):
Plastic being pulled up can also be a complication of a heater block sock dropping and scrubbing the bed... but honestly, it doesn't look like that is happening.
Here's a photo of a dirty bed and what happens when you try to print: it was liberally washed with alcohol before starting. I got the print to succeed only after a soap and water wash.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Beating a dead horse, but here's a cleaning procedure some find useful. The key is keeping fingers clear of the bed surface. Using an alcohol wipe is just as likely to suck the oils off your fingers as much as suck oil off the bed. And the oils are never actually removed, just thinned out and spread around evenly. I really thought that last image I had a clean bed. But when plastic started lifting on the second layer, it was clear: shiny does not mean clean.
Hot Water wash: often, as needed
Handle the bed only by the edges.
Wash the bed in hot water, use a fresh paper towel as a wash cloth, with a few drops of plain dish soap (Dawn, unscented, no anti-bacterial, etc.). Rinse well in hot water - if you have very soft water, rinse a bit longer.
Dry the bed with a fresh paper towel.
Handle the bed only by the edges.
Place bed on printer.
Alcohol rinse: every few prints
Once in a while, an alcohol rinse is helpful to remove PLA residue. It does not remove finger oils.
Pour a 5 cm puddle of 91%+ alcohol in the middle of the bed, with clean hands use a fresh paper towel to scrub the bed. Wipe up all the alcohol.
Streak test: when contamination is suspected
With a fresh piece of paper towel, and very clean fingers, dampen the towel with 91%+ alcohol, and wipe the bed side to side moving back to front, like you're painting it with alcohol. The alcohol should be thin enough on the towel it quickly evaporates. If you see any streaks, the bed is dirty and needs a wash.
Acetone wash: infrequent
Pour a 2 cm puddle of acetone on the bed, scrub it around with a fresh paper towel. It will evaporate fast as you clean. This step removes PEI oxides that form over time and with heat, and improves PLA adhesion to a like new state.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
@ryan-h38 : So if I'm hearing you correctly, you had no issues, except for very large prints, which are challenging anyway, then you applied hair spray, and since then nothing sticks? That sounds like all the subsequent cleaning attempts didn't remove all the hair spray residue. Hair sprays often contain silicone. Silicone forms a non-stick surface.
Since soap, isopropyl alcohol and acetone failed, I'd try an aromatic solvent like toluene or a chlorinated solvent like perchlorethylene. Aromatic and chlorinated solvents are good at dissolving silicones, unlike alcohols and ketones. Both are available in home improvement stores in Europe, but availability may vary in other geographies. Another option is one of commercially available silicone dissolver products. Be careful with all of these and try on a corner of the bed first, they may dissolve PEI, too, particularly perchlorethylene attacks a lot of plastics.
If all else fails, and I really mean when other options are exhausted, wet sanding with soapy water and a sequence of sand papers ending in a 1000 grit fine sandpaper, drying and scrubbing once more with acetone has worked for me recovering a rather marred surface. The soap helps remove the plastic particles as well as disperses any remaining oils in the water. The water helps cool down the plastic while sanding so that it doesn't stick to the sandpaper or melt. A fresh exposed PEI will be sticky again.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Except that common hair spray is designed to wash out with soap and water.
What is it with sand paper and destroying people's beds.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
ps: why does this whole "Sand it and it will be better" crap get to me? When I was new at this, I was having adhesion issues. That ratsnest above was what I was fighting. I had someone telling me the ONLY way to fix it was to sand the PEI sheet with 1000 grit sand paper. I refused to believe that sort of intentional damage to my expensive PEI sheet was needed after only a few weeks of printing. This guy kept insisting it was the only way to regain adhesion...
Well, someone else came in and suggest soap and water. So I tried it. Soap and water works. But don't do what many do and use your normal dish sponge or dish rag, nor should you use your soft dish towel to dry. Use paper towels fresh from the roll. And it doesn't hurt to wash your hands before you start the cleaning process.
End of story.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
Except that common hair spray is designed to wash out with soap and water.
Except nobody cares if plastic doesn't stick to the hair after washing anymore. 😀
What is it with sand paper and destroying people's beds.
It's not destroying it. Yes, it doesn't look the same as new, it's matte, but it's silky smooth and prints stick really well.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
ps: why does this whole "Sand it and it will be better" crap get to me? When I was new at this, I was having adhesion issues. That ratsnest above was what I was fighting. I had someone telling me the ONLY way to fix it was to sand the PEI sheet with 1000 grit sand paper. I refused to believe that sort of intentional damage to my expensive PEI sheet was needed after only a few weeks of printing. This guy kept insisting it was the only way to regain adhesion... Well, someone else came in and suggest soap and water. So I tried it. Soap and water works.
I can imagine how that can damage trust to forum advice. Sanding is an irreversible step and other solutions should be preferred.
End of story.
Not for our original poster. He already tried washing with soap and water and it didn't work for his case. Recommending it more is unlikely to improve the adhesion of his PEI surface.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
What is it with sand paper and destroying people's beds.
It's not destroying it. Yes, it doesn't look the same as new, it's matte, but it's silky smooth and prints stick really well.
Orignal side of the bed, just with daily wear and tear:
The sanded side. I could probably make it look better if I spent more time making sure it's all nicely even, but it works well already:
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
While I don't advocate using actual sand paper, the 3M 7445 pads (steel wool 0000 equivalent) do a good job removing any crusty plastic or other build-up and don't mar the surface to any great degree. While a scuff of the surface with a gentle rub creates a hazy appearance, it soon becomes smooth again after rubbing with a paper towel a few times. These pads are used for polishing glass & chrome, so they're not removing a lot of material. My year-old smooth PEI sheets are still shiny if a bit beat up by other problems. (And yes, this is after actual testing.) The PEI surface is considered a consumable, so while I like to preserve it, I'm willing to occasionally do something to get prints working quickly and reliably.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
While I don't advocate using actual sand paper, the 3M 7445 pads (steel wool 0000 equivalent) do a good job removing any crusty plastic or other build-up and don't mar the surface to any great degree. While a scuff of the surface with a gentle rub creates a hazy appearance, it soon becomes smooth again after rubbing with a paper towel a few times.
A 0000 steel wool is equivalent to 400 grit sand paper. So there the 1000 grit sand paper will give a little smoother surface. The main difference then is aluminum silicate abrasive on the 3M 7445 pad whereas 3M Wetordry will use aluminum oxide and silicon carbide. Of course, aluminum silicate is a much milder abrasive (Mohs hardness 2) then silicon carbide (Mohs hardness 9).
The hardness difference is important when buffing glass, hard chrome or steel, where the 7445 will only abrade deposits and not the material. But since PEI is way below even Mohs hardness 1 it doesn't matter how hard or soft the abrasive is, it'll abrade PEI anyway.
I expect the result between the 3M 7445 and the 3M Wetordry 1000 grit (used wet) would be quite similar in the final finish.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
None of that interests me personally. I'm out to explain how to safely get reproducible results. The reason I singled out the 3M 7445 pad was because just recommending "Scotch Brite" might result in someone selecting one of the coarse types. Similarly, recommending any sort of sandpaper might result in someone using whatever coarse sandpaper they happen to have at hand. More important is the technique. I specifically mention lightly scuffing to emphasize the importance of not digging into the PEI surface. Whatever grade abrasive I've used seems to have done less damage to my OG gold PEI surface (the one that's supposed to rust badly):
That fine scuffing has since buffed mostly smooth in the process of regularly cleaning the sheet.
I'm not interested in the paper or lab specs, I'm interested in techniques to help people solve problems with 3D printers. Rather than look at data sheets, I prefer to refer to woodworking and crafts discussions where they talk about practical applications. A light scuffing with a 3M 7445 pad is sufficient description to allow a confused new user to restore their PEI surface without damaging it. I don't need to throw reams of technical data into the discussion. Doing so, while coming to essentially the same conclusions only confuses things.
I hope you understand that you're not the only one who has done research and tested. Your posts seem to start with an assumption that nobody else has done their homework.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
@bobstro
First, thanks for the specifications, I wasn't able to find them. I stand corrected, the 7445 is indeed finer and seems superior for the purpose.
Second - no, I actually expect your findings are more valid than mine, with you having clearly more experience than me, with me having delved into 3D printing only in December. (And me finding it's a really deep rabbit hole.)
Still, when I'm trying to find out whether what I found by study and experimentation might be better or worse what you found, I'm trying to find a way to compare without having to replicate your methods exactly. Yes, I could go and buy a 3M 7445 and test what the scuffing looks like, but I rather tried to find a way how to compare the specs that I found and have a guess whether it makes sense to get the 3M pad. Obviously, I didn't succeed. 🙂
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
@bobstro
And I appreciate you explaining why you are making certain recommendations and how you arrived to them. That helps me understand, rather than just replicate success.
RE: printer perfect for 7 months now nothing will adhere.
@bobstro
And I appreciate you explaining why you are making certain recommendations and how you arrived to them. That helps me understand, rather than just replicate success.
Fair enough, and no hard feelings. Written communications, especially within the limits of this forum software, are always prone to misunderstanding and confusion. The biggest confusion for me (staring with my 1st Mk3 in April 2018) was the amount of information out there on 3D printing in general that was often applied to the Mk3. Sanding PEI is a prime example. A rough-and-ready sanding that works on a slab of PEI several mm thick can create a mess on the thin Prusa PEI surface. Slathering glue and hairspray on glass is the norm for other printers, but generally only creates a mess with the Prusa spring steel sheets. I always feel for the poor souls that post a picture of a print they're trying using a raft and other guidance they found from guides dating back several years.
I spend a lot of time here (well, used to) as well as on the various 3D printing reddit groups, and see a lot of new users get into serious messes following "conventional" 3D printing advice, so I always try to describe in layman's terms how to get a good result. The "science" may indicate these aren't the best methods, but I lean towards fool-proof as much for myself as for others seeking help getting started. I'm certainly no expert, but I've made a lot of mistakes! I'm all for supporting data, but do want to distill it down to practical "here's what to do" advice in the end. I appreciate the obvious expertise and effort you, tim and the rest of this community contributes.
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He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan