MK3 coming!  

Re: MK3 coming!

@jason.t6 You ordered and paid for an assembled Prusa I3 MK2S printer and got the kit. Were your charged for the ready built MK2S printer or not? If not, ...........

Re: MK3 coming!

I feel that Prusa Research, with massive recent orders for the MK2S should honour for at least a month back a swap out, as their is no true upgrade path to the MK3

I for one will not buy from Prusa Research again. I was hurt and burnt, before. I am building my own 3D printers if I need them right now. I have rationalised my workshop.

An Ultimaker 2+, a MK2 Prusa I3 (upgraded from a MK1) and a Hictop CR10 < being heavily modified by me and I love the huge build base/height. Totally modifiable , oh yeah.

Re: MK3 coming!

I feel that Prusa Research, with massive recent orders for the MK2S should honour for at least a month back a swap out, as their is no true upgrade path to the MK3

I for one will not buy from Prusa Research again. I was hurt and burnt, before. I am building my own 3D printers if I need them right now. I have rationalised my workshop.

An Ultimaker 2+, a MK2 Prusa I3 (upgraded from a MK1) and a Hictop CR10 < being heavily modified by me and I love the huge build base/height. Totally modifiable , oh yeah.

Don't know if Prusa takes a "Lessons Learned" approach to things they do but there definitely lessons to be learned, especially in this case where the MK3 breaks their "Fully Upgradable" approach. You can't blame them for working to improve the product to the point where it can't be fully upgraded and of course you're never going to make everyone happy but there is a lot you can do to minimize as much of a negative impact as you can. These are just some ideas.

- Not always possible, and I know it can impact their sales but better communication with their customers. If they had announced a couple of months ago that they are working on something new, just dropping hints, they could have given customers an opportunity to hold their orders in anticipation, could have even started communication with those customers to see if they want to continue their order or put it on hold.

- I think the people that would be most angry are the ones that received or are receiving printers in or around the time of announcement, especially those who have been waiting months on months for their order to be fulfilled. They could have frozen all orders at least 14 days prior to their announcement and then given customers an option to pay the difference for an MK3, putting them first in line for an MK3 Pre-Order or continue with their existing order.

- Offer a choice of an MK2.5 upgrade vs a discounts on an MK3 based on timeframe of shipment. Say a free MK2.5 or a generously substantial discount on an MK3 for people who received an MK2s within last 14 days to avoid returns and work your way up with a choice of a discount on MK2.5 upgrade or discount on MK3 going back 2-3 months.

- Avoid long delays on back orders. Now from what I've read, they've done a lot of work to eliminate the back log on the printers, new facility, increased production. There is always room for more improvements, Don't allow substantially back-ordered parts like MMU to hold printer shipments by automatically breaking up shipments.

- Don't allow back orders that take longer than a month to fulfill, work out some kind of Queue system or increase production.

Re: MK3 coming!

I think that is exactly right. I got my MK2S about a month ago and I don't feel burned or annoyed because progress, and I am very happy with my experience, not as much the printer but still happy. Main reason I seem to be far less upset is because my printer showed up a week from order. I am in California and I got a bunch of filament as well. I've already eaten through half my ABS stock with parts to help around the house, toys for nephews and nieces, custom things for friends without printers, etc. So yeah, very happy, I feel like Santa and his near silent orange robot elf. MK2.5 already ear marked in budget and there is a spot dusted off for the MK3, so I guess a relatively well running machine and quick shipping is the difference from burned or bonded. Couldn't care less about communication, Prusa Research is a for profit company and are not obligated to cannibalize sales or progress in the name of customer envy issues. I hate to be so rough about this but businesses that molly coddle to that extreme die, so for the health of their business on future orders, yes it is a necessary evil. But as obvious from all the words before, delays from shipping particularly after taking money units is poop on a stick and they need to take their logistics more seriously, that I agree is a business fail of which I haven't been victim to. But I am totally ready to spew bile here on our forums if and when they fail my calm.

Re: MK3 coming!

There is a lot of ways to improve the processes. Prusa is a growing youngster, they are still learning. Companies take things like this into consideration when releasing new launches to avoid alienating customers. One solution is to avoid 5 months orders, freeze orders prior to new launches...Lots of possibilities, something they have to figure out themselves that fits their business model. I wouldn't be pissed if I was using the printer 5 months. If you read my message, you will see that I ordered the printer in April and I received it a day before they announced the MK3. How is someone not supposed to be upset about that. Being a Fanboy is ok, defending a company because of it to no end with baseless or absurd justifications doesn't help a company take criticism and improve their processes so they can better themselves.

There are things worth complaining about, and things not exactly worth complaining about.

This whole "managing the process" thing is a euphemism for "my feels r hurts".

Whether it's a hard announcement or a soft announcement or something that involves puppies and Hallmark cards doesn't really matter if you look at the big picture.

There must be a cutoff point, and someone going to be left on the wrong side of that. The specifics are really kind of uninteresting.

Furthermore, you got in on the tail end of the MK2. That was your decision. The MK2, by the time you received it, was a nicely tested and understood design and we have lots of experience with it that was only garnered by hard work from those of us that did get in earlier on the MK2. The same iteration will start with the MK3 as well. We are at least 3 months out from even seeing product, and another X months out for all the monkeys to thoroughly test the machine and provide feedback before any of that makes its way back out to other customers.

You ordered a dream making machine. It takes your dreams and physically manifests them.

How do you cope with the fact that the next iteration of dream making machine just came out and now your iteration costs $100 less?

Well, you go print your dreams. You assemble your printer and get the thing actually working and producing awesome prints. In the X months between now and when any MK3's ever land in any customer's hands, you crank out a bunch of awesome prints that leave your colleagues drooling, and you look back and go, "You know... I'm glad I got my printer when I did because I can't imagine delaying my dreams X months. Especially if that X month delay landed me in December or later because I'm printing some cool ass Christmas gift doo-dads to hand out."

Knowing what I know now, which is the culmination of already having been through all this, including already seeing this rough 2 year cadence -- yes, I would not be upset. I would start printing.

You have some somewhat valid complaints in the later post, but really the majority of this doesn't yield anything that makes a real difference.

I'm not even defending PR. I'm not saying, "PR did the right thing."

I'm saying I'm not sure if anything you are saying really matters.

But, I have no rush to get the Mk3; it's not the upgrade I was hoping for.

What were you hoping for?

Re: MK3 coming!

But, I have no rush to get the Mk3; it's not the upgrade I was hoping for.

What were you hoping for?

The main problem I have is the controller, more specifically the MCU. And the dumbing down of the Mk3 is not really going forward. Most of the problems "fixed" are not problems I experience. There have been significant additions to the firmware - I now see it as bloated, much the same as Slic3r PE which takes an age to load on my PC.

An ATMega2560 can only do so much; there comes a point when you have to move forward. Interpolated stepping - which doesn't work properly below 16 Hz - is not really moving forward, it's just working around an issue. Actually, the drivers are controlled via SPI, so I hope interpolation is adjusted by the firmware in real-time, according to the required extrusion.

I already experience stuttering and it has been reported by other users on this forum, so interpolated steps may help with this.

Apparently the Mk3 can print at 200mm/s. At 0.2mm layers with a width of 0.4mm, this is some 50% more than the maximum melt of the V6.

On 17 Jan 2016, Josef wrote (to me):

I was playing with magnetic heatbed 6 years ago, unfortunately even if you get special high temp magnets, they loose the strength over time :-/ See my video of magnetic heatbed

I don't believe that magnets have changed their characteristics since then. But I may be very wrong.

We do know that these printers have been tested in the PR printer farm, but has there been any real user testing?

And those of us who control our printers with OctoPrint use Pi 2's or 3's for a reason. Pi Zero. Really???

Still, let's wait and see what the early adopters have to say; I am pretty sure there will be some comments on these forums, I am hoping they will be positive.

Peter

Re: MK3 coming!

Well I must say that there exists many ways to reach a specific point - and none of them needs to be the better one. If you for example did as I did - bought a Prusa MK1 (2015) and stayed with it until now - then you have a possibility to buy a really good machine with MK3. But I have also missed out the better thoroughly tested MK2S and fight to some extent to get good prints out of the MK1. So I am still learning new things with every print and I will keep and use the MK1 as long as it is economically feasible. There may come a point where the filament diameter of 2.85 mm will cost much more than 1.75 mm and that can impact the printing costs. Or maybe the Rambo 1.3a will tripple it's price depending on demand and production and it may be unjustifiable to buy a new Rambo of the then old type - you wouldn't buy a 286 motherboard for a PC today, would you.

On the other hand - just because I am hardly willing to buy a new 3D printer just because it seems better reading the specs - I am in the position to either buy a brand new printer with it's possibilities and quirks - or stay with something I know works good enough. So all in all the choise is all yours - you can wait a few years longer to buy a brand new MK* and print flawlessly , including maybe printing electronics directly into the 3d printed objects. Or print objects all in metal. Or why not - the future printer may consist of several small robots that all work in parallel, moving on top of the object and prints it's own part of the object. But waiting too long also have some backdraws - one of them is missing out of experience and learning to fight problems - that is what I like to experience at least.

/Henrik

Re: MK3 coming!

Prusa have agreed to take back my MK2S kit (Which arrived the day before the MK3 announcement and is still in the box) for a refund.

To be honest, I would probably stick with the MK2S (assuming I got it for the new cheaper price) if it wasn't for the improved Y-Axis.. I have been contemplating my upgrade from my Printrbot for well over a year and the Prusa has been at the top of the list.. But its Y-Axis has always bothered me.. I don't know why, as its evident that its a great machine.. But I just don't like it..

I just feel better with the new aluminum box frame, and feel a lot happier going with Prusa now they have re-designed it.

So even though this saga has cost me £60 in shipping, I am still fairly happy with the outcome.

Re: MK3 coming!

- I think the people that would be most angry are the ones that received or are receiving printers in or around the time of announcement, especially those who have been waiting months on months for their order to be fulfilled.

Hello!...First post....This is the category I fall into and you better believe I'm more than annoyed right now....
July 9 - Placed order for Mk2s kit and MMU which pushed delivery to Nov.
Aug 20 - Entered a chat session to cancel the MMU.....This is my first printer and decided I better build the printer itself and get experience making basic prints before delving in deeper with the MMU.....
Aug 24 - Email stating my order has been changed
Aug 30 - I emailed Prusa asking when the printer kit would be shipped
Aug 31 - Return email saying my kit should be shipped out tomorrow
Sept 8 - Sent message asking again when my printer would be shipped
Sept 8 - Message saying a label was created
Sept 8 - email stating hey we're caught up on printer orders, free shipping this weekend!....Not for you though...he he....
Sept 9 - Package shipped
Sept 11 - I finally received the kit
Sept 24 - Email announcing the new printer

So I've had my printer for 13 days since the announcement....I'll have to pay the same $149 for the upgrade as everyone else that had the Mk2s from the beginning ....I don't even have it completely built yet.....Yeah.....Not very happy about the situation......Ted

Re: MK3 coming!

Prusa have agreed to take back my MK2S kit (Which arrived the day before the MK3 announcement and is still in the box) for a refund.

To be honest, I would probably stick with the MK2S (assuming I got it for the new cheaper price) if it wasn't for the improved Y-Axis.. I have been contemplating my upgrade from my Printrbot for well over a year and the Prusa has been at the top of the list.. But its Y-Axis has always bothered me.. I don't know why, as its evident that its a great machine.. But I just don't like it..

I just feel better with the new aluminum box frame, and feel a lot happier going with Prusa now they have re-designed it.

So even though this saga has cost me £60 in shipping, I am still fairly happy with the outcome.

"Reiben, pay attention. Now this is the way to gripe."

Switching to the extrusion based Y-axis, if PR did it correctly, will be worth the £60. Trust me. The first time you have a problem related to the threaded rods, you will blow past that value in time spent debugging and disassembling/reassembling the nightmare contraption. I know I did, and I bought mine pre-assembled. That's right -- PR designed something that their own guys couldn't adequately assemble. Just *fixing* the assembly chewed up multiple evenings, and it's still not quite to my satisfaction. Hell, I didn't even own metric thin wrenches to adjust the stupid thin nuts, so I had to buy those just for the printer. I would have been OK had they used regular nuts, but no, they had to go and use thin nuts, which meant you needed to have at least 1 thin wrench just to adjust the damn Y axis alignment.

Re: MK3 coming!

I was at the TCT Show at birmingham national exhibition center today.

The Mk3 was there. Brand new out of the box.
They got it working quickly. And then demonstrated power problems by literally pulling the iec power plug out of the psu.
The mk3 responded by disabling the extruder heater and the bed then raising z and moving the extruder to the left and storing the gcode completed to date pointers to preserved memory. Believed to be eeram

When power was restored. The printer re heated the extruder and bed then homed x and y. Then continued from the point in gcode where the print failed...

Also another demonstrator simulated filament run out or failure. By cutting the filament about 50mm above the extruder. As the end of the filament entered the filament sensor. The printer recognised the issue, stopped printing and ran the extruder up and right, as if an M600 command had been received. Then the printer unloaded the remaining filament stub. And waited for. Human intervention. The demonstrator trimmed the end of the filament from the roll,at an angle,as reccommended. Re inserted it into the printer and pressed the knob. As for M600 change. The printer loaded the filament as per M600 process and asked if colour was clear.... the demonstrator pressed the knob again... and the print returned to the place it stopped, and continued... (THE DEMONSTRATOR DID GRAB THE SQUIRT OF PLA,WITH PLIERS. AS THE EXTRUDER MOVED BACK INTO PLAY... AS NORMALLY HAPPENS WITH M600...)

There are no end stops. The new stepper drivers recognise increased current draw when the x and y carriages bump into the travel end points. And recognise these as the home points... This action seemed to occur without any klunks and bangs... and was quite impressive.

Skew check and initial Calibration is done with the steel plate removed... so that pinda can see the 9 calibration pads in the heatbed.

Later, at print time. The pei coated steel bed is re inserted. And i believe the pinda auto trams /levels to the new height. (Bed plus steel sheet)

Joseph was asked how robust the steel sheet for the bed was, and how much it could be distorted and still recover to useable condition. He took a pair of wire cutters and scraped the powder coated surface with no noticeable damage. Even though we could hear the scraping noise above the general high noise levels in the exhibition centre.
He then grasped the sides of the metal sheet and bent the sheet into a u shape a couple of times. After which it appeared to restore to straight... ... i didnt see that sheet being used on the printer because the adalinda that they started at the beginning of the day was still printing... even though the power had been stopped a number of times and the filament cut a number of times...
The steel sheet is powder coated on both sides. And the coating seems a little finer than the surface we have been seing from the printer farm.
In addition to the magnets there are two metal pins that physically locate the steel sheet on the bed.

I didnt get the opportunity to experience the hot or cold magnet holding power.

I was told the magnets are embedded within the heatbed and that there were about 24 magnets...

Joseph also described a feature where the stepper drivers can sense a head/model collision which would normally cause lost steps and mis alignment of the extruder. And he said the extruder would stop printing. Rise in z axis. Restore x and y calibration. Return to the point in gcode where the collision occurred. And continue from that point. I didnt witness that action. However when he brought the statistics up later in the day. They showed a number of power losses. A number of filament failures and a number of head realignments (this is my phrase. As i was not close enough to see the official description...

After all of these interventions... the adalinda still looked like an adalinda.
True it was still on the build plate and we could not look at it closely. But it looked a lot better than adalinda would have done on a mk2 printer after the power had been pulled out. And the filament repeatedly cut...

I suspect the sensitivity of the stepper drivers may baulk at the reported stiffness of the after market plastic linear bearings... (cant think of the name immediately)

I didnt notice any smoke and mirrors...

And was impressed by the aparrent robustness of the automated recovery procedures.. regards Joan

Re: MK3 coming!

And the dumbing down of the Mk3 is not really going forward. Most of the problems "fixed" are not problems I experience.

After reading joan's post, I can kind of see why it might seem there is a lot of wiz-bang-ery going on.

However, if you look at it from a different angle, it seems like what they did was close the open loops, which has been one of my biggest complaints of these hobby grade printers. In fact the MK3 is very, very close to a printer that I could actually recommend to someone else.*

The problem is when it comes time to actually market this into a sea of consumer whores whose primary concern is the agonizing and crippling fear that SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE PAID LESS FOR THEIR PRINTER THAN THEY DID! "This thing closes the loops" is probably a really bad marketing bullet, at least for normal consumers.

So they have to wiz-bang some of it up in order to sell it.

I noted some of the other things you did as well. Guess we'll have to wait for the details.

* Still want to see a secondary layer of thermal limits on the 2 problem points.

Re: MK3 coming!

I noted some of the other things you did as well. Guess we'll have to wait for the details.

One other thought... A lot of the "Recovery" features will only work when printing from SD card. And maybe not the "FlashAir" (?). Filament run-out? Well in many instances when this has happened to me, the end of the filament is stuck to the spool. In any event, when it happens, Octoprint will time-out; it will do the same on other long-running operations - it's not a good idea to define a "G1" as a "long running command".

Peter

Re: MK3 coming!

@PJR
I've been looking at the FlashAir and wondering the same thing but, if my guess is correct, it should work fine. If FlashAir isn't streaming the model, it is storing it in local memory. That local memory looks like a normal SD card to firmware I would assume much like smartphone shows up as a drive in PC, no? It would be no different than a use pause on FlashAir which I believe works fine.

Re: MK3 coming!

@PJR
I've been looking at the FlashAir and wondering the same thing but, if my guess is correct, it should work fine. If FlashAir isn't streaming the model, it is storing it in local memory. That local memory looks like a normal SD card to firmware I would assume much like smartphone shows up as a drive in PC, no? It would be no different than a use pause on FlashAir which I believe works fine.

Yeah, it could be. But I would guess that it has an operating system which takes some time to boot.

Peter

Re: MK3 coming!

I'm pretty conflicted. I was thinking I would stick with the 2.5 upgrade. But then that upgrade is $200, plus if I'm going to take apart my MK2 (non-S) I'd want to also upgrade the bearings and rods to the MK2S version, so that's $250. But then I've also been looking at some of the rigid frame 3030 mods, which would be another $200ish I think. So at $450 that's over half the cost of the MK3 as it is. Maybe I'm just trying to justify to myself why I need the new shiny though.

Re: MK3 coming!

Octoprint does crash. I know from experience, it is not an answer and be it all. I run Octopi on a Raspberry Pi Zero W attached to a development printer I am building and also a main stream ready built 3D printer.

I also run PiHole a Black Hole for internet adverts. It stops working after a week or so on a Raspberry Pi Zero W.

Re: MK3 coming!

What causes octopi to crash? A memory leak? Poor flash memory? Just curious.. heck, even full fledged computers bluescreen, or power cycle sometimes.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be worthwhile to go through the Github code/bug lists, just to see where it stands.

Re: MK3 coming!

No problems with my Pi (2, or 3? Not sure):

My brother however, has a Pi zero, and he has trouble with it. Particularly when connecting a Pi camera, that basically doesnt work. From what I read, the wifi code for the Pi zero W is also not mature yet.

Re: MK3 coming!

Well the PR printers thus far haven't exactly been made with Pi in mind so far, so I stick with flash for now. (About to order a flashair and upgrade my firmware.)

My Pi's stay up for months and I can't remember the last time they crashed a print with my Printrbot. The only problem I have with them is SD card corruption. I wish they would fix that. That usually only manifests at reboot, and I usually only reboot due to power loss.