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[Closed] Bye bye, Prusa  

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Acht
 Acht
(@acht)
Trusted Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

I am not gonna play that game. I told you in my post, you just didn't care to quote it and I have no idea if you read it. Also if you want to answer to something state answer to the whole - you didn't even quote the whole sentence. While this is common in politics, it is childish to do it in a forum.

Posted by: @tsamisa

, but you and OP are twisting the truth again and again so hard,

Well its actually expected hard core fans to make such claims. I never had a bambu. All my 3d printers are Prusa. The fact that you find on my posts that im trying HARD to twist the truth is rather... silly (put it midly). In what post exactly did i twist the truth? As said and wrote a lot of times i have the XL i dont regret getting it, but that it has flaws a 4k machine with 2 years in production an a year delayed shouldnt have. Actually you are the type of prusa customer that solidifies the point i wanted to make

 

Posted : 04/12/2023 1:50 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

but you and OP are twisting the truth again and again so hard

Thats the excuse? Your  are claiming that AGAIN and AGAIN im twisting the truth while it was my first comment on this post. You are refering to "my other posts". And i asked to verify your claim that "in my other posts" i want to change the opinion in favor of bambu... while in almost every of my posts i state i own only Prusas.  When your argumenrs are of these caliber then what base do you have to harsly critisize the opinion of others? And for the record the XL was at least 2 years in production. Crash detection bugs, stringing issues, usb fails should not even be there. If your happy to pay 4k for a delayed product with such bugs be my guest and cudos to you. I have the right to complain without people start verbally shooting or claiming that i promote someone, or that i try again and again to twist  the truth. 

Posted : 04/12/2023 2:04 pm
Acht
 Acht
(@acht)
Trusted Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

but you and OP are twisting the truth again and again so hard

Thats the excuse? Your  are claiming that AGAIN and AGAIN im twisting the truth while it was my first comment on this post. You are refering to "my other posts". And i asked to verify your claim that "in my other posts" i want to change the opinion in favor of bambu... while in almost every of my posts i state i own only Prusas.  When your argumenrs are of these caliber then what base do you have to harsly critisize the opinion of others? And for the record the XL was at least 2 years in production. Crash detection bugs, stringing issues, usb fails should not even be there. If your happy to pay 4k for a delayed product with such bugs be my guest and cudos to you. I have the right to complain without people start verbally shooting or claiming that i promote someone, or that i try again and again to twist  the truth. 

Mhh seems you have again answered to to the same quote from me which I never wrote like that. But in any case - you proved my point - well done!

Posted : 04/12/2023 5:09 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

If that would be the discussion here, but you and OP are twisting the truth again and again so hard, it can not be taken seriously. Also it really becomes very clear from yours and OP's other posts you want to change the view people have on Prusa vs Bamboo which makes no sense: Bamboo has the best colorswitching printer and Prusa the best tool changing printer without question.

ok here is the whole paragraph. I dont thing even quoting the whole post will change anything.Did you or did you not write/claimed that  "Also it really becomes very clear from yours and OP's other posts you want to change the view people have on Prusa vs Bamboo "? What does "twisting" the thrith actually means for you in the above OR ANY context? Is it different of the basic understanding that the rest of the worlds has?

Posted : 04/12/2023 5:35 pm
IPIND 3D
(@ipind-3d)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

As said and wrote a lot of times i have the XL i dont regret getting it, but that it has flaws a 4k machine with 2 years in production an a year delayed shouldnt have.

This rubbish again.

It was 2 years+ in DEVELOPMENT, not production. It also was not delayed a year and the shipping date of production units given at the original launch was a 'best guess', not a hard date.

Then the well know chip shortage hit and the war in Ukraine canned their linear rail supplier.

They pulled board manufacturing in-house and sourced alternate suppliers to recover. That takes time.

In that period of the delay, they continued DEVELOPMENT and moved away from the orbital extruder and changed to a planetary drive, amongst other things. Again, a major hardware change and I for one am glad they did it.

The Bambu offerings, like a lot of printers or many other products; were plagued with issues in the first year of of their release.

Posted : 05/12/2023 3:50 am
Acht liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

The first prototype was presented in a fair nov 21. So it was supposetly maybe not in production but surely at the latest state of development. Prusa estimated Q3 of 2022 but delivered the first in aug 23. Thats a year delay. As far the validity of excuses like the covid, ukrania, mk4 release, power supplies etc, there are discussed in other posts by quite a few ppl and my original post was not to comment on this but rather on the concept of people attacking a post because it was critisizing Prusa. Maybe OP was justified maybe not. This not the issue here. Im not going to go over my personal opinion on the matter since whats left is to be accused as a chinese agent even if i continiously state that all my printers until now are Prusa. Ok that a bit harsh, more like a BL sales manager,  but i just want to pass a point. My XL needs more "work" but im not regreting getting it and i get better results now. But to the OP i would just give my "condolences" since even if im not going the same path i can understand the frustration of waiting 2y for a 4k lemon. It didnt happen to me (the issues i had were somewhat "tolerable" since i dont have it for work) but it doesnt mean they are fairytales. I saw his post with videos and i would get pissed too. Especially if in the end he was left with a -200+ euro on tax and shipping on a product he was waiting for 2y. 

Posted by: @ipind-3d

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

As said and wrote a lot of times i have the XL i dont regret getting it, but that it has flaws a 4k machine with 2 years in production an a year delayed shouldnt have.

This rubbish again.

It was 2 years+ in DEVELOPMENT, not production. It also was not delayed a year and the shipping date of production units given at the original launch was a 'best guess', not a hard date.

Then the well know chip shortage hit and the war in Ukraine canned their linear rail supplier.

They pulled board manufacturing in-house and sourced alternate suppliers to recover. That takes time.

In that period of the delay, they continued DEVELOPMENT and moved away from the orbital extruder and changed to a planetary drive, amongst other things. Again, a major hardware change and I for one am glad they did it.

The Bambu offerings, like a lot of printers or many other products; were plagued with issues in the first year of of their release.

 

Posted : 05/12/2023 4:44 am
nhand42
(@nhand42)
Trusted Member
RE:
Posted by: @tsamisa

but that it has flaws a 4k machine with 2 years in production an a year delayed shouldnt have.

I don't understand the reasoning behind mentioning the price of the machine when discussing its flaws? It seems to be a common refrain in 90% of these threads. "I spent $X on this machine and because I spent $X on the machine this singular flaw is unacceptable".

A few years ago I bought a car. The radio didn't work reliably. The dealership tried three times to make it right. Eventually there was a recall and it got replaced. At no stage did I say to the dealership "this car has flaws a $120k machine shouldn't have". Because that's not an argument.

A few years later I built a house. There was a problem with the plumbing. The builder tried once to make it right then did a runner because builders are dodgy * * *s. I paid a plumber to fix it out of my own pocket. At no stage did I say "this house has flaws a $1 million house shouldn't have". Because it's not an argument.

Complicated machines have problems. Even the best machines have problems. What matters is do they get fixed or not. Is there a solution? Is there support? Does the seller fix it like the car dealership or are they dodgy * * *s like my builder? That's the more compelling argument.

The price of the machine is simply not an argument.

Posted : 10/12/2023 2:07 pm
IPIND 3D, MME and Asus1357 liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

 

Posted by: @nhand42
Posted by: @tsamisa

but that it has flaws a 4k machine with 2 years in production an a year delayed shouldnt have.

I don't understand the reasoning behind mentioning the price of the machine when discussing its flaws? It seems to be a common refrain in 90% of these threads. "I spent $X on this machine and because I spent $X on the machine this singular flaw is unacceptable".

A few years ago I bought a car. The radio didn't work reliably. The dealership tried three times to make it right. Eventually there was a recall and it got replaced. At no stage did I say to the dealership "this car has flaws a $120k machine shouldn't have". Because that's not an argument.

A few years later I built a house. There was a problem with the plumbing. The builder tried once to make it right then did a runner because builders are dodgy * * *s. I paid a plumber to fix it out of my own pocket. At no stage did I say "this house has flaws a $1 million house shouldn't have". Because it's not an argument.

Complicated machines have problems. Even the best machines have problems. What matters is do they get fixed or not. Is there a solution? Is there support? Does the seller fix it like the car dealership or are they dodgy * * *s like my builder? That's the more compelling argument.

The price of the machine is simply not an argument.

It depends what you compare. If your car , you 3d printer etc is considered of "higher" cost in the product category you expect something to represent that premium. Prusa sells printers and adds a premium for its name. And when you buy an expensive car and the windows fall down the stearing wheel has a long play and other issues that shouldnt be there yes you complain. If buy a brand new EXPENSIVE CAR and the aircondition was smelly the majority of byers would complain. If you dont understand why then is just a diference of opinion and good for you for you patience. There are other multihead and single head printers cheaper that dont attach a premium on their name. That specific premium that i spent on Prusa is what gives me the right to complain. 

Posted : 10/12/2023 4:16 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

At no stage did I say "this house has flaws a $1 million house shouldn't have". Because it's not an argument.

And about that. Sorry but for me paying a 1m to buy a NEW house with plumbing issues and no complain to the construction company? Sorry mate they would get an earfull. And the excuse and argument? I paid a god damn million for it. And where i come from a mil is considered still a hefty amount of money. 

Posted : 10/12/2023 6:11 pm
IPIND 3D
(@ipind-3d)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

There are other multihead and single head printers cheaper that dont attach a premium on their name. That specific premium that i spent on Prusa is what gives me the right to complain. 

Name one other tool changer on the market in the sub $100K segment.

Posted : 10/12/2023 7:37 pm
Acht liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

At the top of my mind moso mt and proforge 4 (im not sure in what ordering and shipping state is this) There are few others but i

cant remember them now. I found them while waiting for XL. As for single head large format well im sure you already know a banch. So if there are others im allow to complain or....? And im prety sure there are under 100k. 

Posted : 10/12/2023 8:31 pm
IPIND 3D
(@ipind-3d)
Estimable Member
RE:

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

At the top of my mind moso mt and proforge 4 (im not sure in what ordering and shipping state is this) There are few others but i

cant remember them now. I found them while waiting for XL. As for single head large format well im sure you already know a banch. So if there are others im allow to complain or....? And im prety sure there are under 100k. 

Oh cool - a kickstarter with only 4 tool heads; from a company with no experience or history of desiging and building printers; that's only just shipped (late) and a the other is has a smaller build volume and only 4 tool heads with sketchy information from no-name startup. Good luck with those!

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by IPIND 3D
Posted : 10/12/2023 8:43 pm
Acht liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

but there are cheap. So i dont expect much. That why i said for a 4k printer i expected more and if i wanted to buy something buggy after two years waiting there are cheaper solutions. Is creality better then mk3s. No. Thats why i wont complain for a 300E printer of that form but ill complain for a 800 mk3s if i get crash alarms and lousy upload speeds. And the point in my post that keeps getting ignored is that i didnt start this as ANOTHER  debate about if the number of bugs or the price of XL or their delays are justified but that anyone has the right to complain, within the limit of decensy. Not all experiences are the same and not all of them consider the process and relase quality of this printer a proper one. You do good for you. Someone doesnt. It diesnt mean that it works for BL. 

Posted : 10/12/2023 9:13 pm
nhand42
(@nhand42)
Trusted Member
RE:

 

Posted by: @tsamisa

 you 3d printer etc is considered of "higher" cost in the product category you expect something to represent that premium.

Really, you think the Prusa XL is of "higher cost" in this product category? Please point me towards a tool-changing five-toolhead large-volume core-xy printer which is better value than the Prusa XL. Maybe you know something I don't, but I'm not aware of any competitor to Prusa XL in this price range.

There are cheaper core-xy printers but they aren't large volume. There are large-volume printers but they don't have tool-changers. There are tool-changer printers but they definitely aren't better value. "Higher cost"? No, it's cheaper than many of its competitors and they don't even have tool-changing.

Before I bought the Prusa XL I was weighing my options. I considered the Bambu, the Voron, a few others, and none of them were as compelling value as the Prusa XL. It's uniquely positioned in this space. It ticks all the boxes whereas most of its competitors tick only 1 or 2 of the boxes, not all of them. And the Prusa XL is incredibly good value for money. I couldn't build it this cheap even using spares that I had. Do the exercise yourself, put together a BOM and try and beat the Prusa XL. Unless you are buying garbage-tier parts you cannot beat the price.

I can only imagine you're comparing the Prusa XL to a competitors 250x250x220 core-xy single-head, and somehow thinking that's an apples to oranges comparison. I have no other explanation for why you'd think the Prusa XL is overpriced?

Posted by: @tsamisa

That specific premium that i spent on Prusa is what gives me the right to complain.

And that's a much better argument. And one that I fully endorse. Prusa had a reputation for being a premium brand and that's now been tarnished. Prusa has lost a lot of goodwill with the botched launch of the Prusa XL. It's been a rough couple of months and only now is the firmware catching up. You have every right to complain, and don't get me wrong I complained about my radio, but the *price* of the car wasn't the reason why. I complained because the radio didn't work. You should absolutely be upset with a non-functional printer, but pointing out the price before a complaint... frankly it makes you seem cheap.

Posted : 10/12/2023 11:57 pm
dasdigidings, IPIND 3D, Acht and 1 people liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

So the issue now in this post became if the value for money is considered good or bad in comparison with others, and if there is base on that, to consider it an argument for expressing or not a complain about Prusa? Or else is cheap. Frankly what "you fully endorse" and what youconsider cheap is not even an argument. I gave some examples in my previous post. Are they any good. I dont know. But surely since i they are on the cheap site my expections are low and my , probable, complains even lower. 

Posted : 11/12/2023 4:52 am
frebys
(@frebys)
Trusted Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

I feel for those who have bad experiences with PRUSA. If you're not a professional (like me), these things cost a lot of money and you'd just want them to work. My experience with MK4 has been almost perfect, including customer support, but I don't have any first-hand experience with the XL. (If I was more cynical I'd say that all these forum posts of people complaining about PRUSA and also making sure to tell the world that they're going to buy specifically Bambu 3D printers is an aggressive albeit maybe effective marketing ploy, but thankfully I'm not at all that cynical.)

Posted : 11/12/2023 8:15 am
Thejiral
(@thejiral)
Noble Member
RE:

It was you yourself who started talking about price category playing a role in evaluating bugs and initial flaws and if they are acceptable or not. The XL is not expensive in its category, some might say it is even pretty good value in its category. 

Of course you have to judge machines relative to the price range of the own category. Or are you super picky about gap measurements of a new car, because it did cost you 4000  EUR? 

The launch of the XL was certainly disappointing and buggy but so far it does look to me that those are launch issues and not fundamental flaws. Given that I know of no competitor product for a 5 head tool changer of comparable size and price I am struggling to see how the machine is a premium product. 

This post was modified 3 months ago 3 times by Thejiral

Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4

Posted : 11/12/2023 8:35 am
nhand42 and Acht liked
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

It was you yourself who started talking about price category playing a role in evaluating bugs

No it wasn't me. What i said and wrote is for someone giving 4k after waiting for 2 years out of which the one were delays (reasoning for those not the issue here) gives him the right to complain if he gets a lemon. Or if he finds that the result is not par to the price tag. Few of you picked the "price" part and argued that it is not an argument and rather cheap to complain according to the price of an object. And gave the examples of a one million house with bad plumbing etc. So  i argued back that it is all relative to what the price range is for a product and where the object in questions sits according to this. And so on and so on. You can freely read all the above posts. And since you are reading them is a good approach to read the point that im trying to make almost in EVERY ONE of my posts. That a guy had a lemon, that paid for with 4k (if you have a 1m brand new house with bad plumbing maybe is not an issue for you but maybe the guy is not of this price tag or values money more), waited for 2 years, got bad taste from the support, left with 200E+ loss of money and the comments that followed were giving the impression that he wasnt allowed to complain. Maybe if he was getting a Proforge 4 with 4TH that costs 200oE, or a single head voron kit he woudlnt. But again its his decision, Proforge etc dont sell a "Brand name".  Some people started commenting saying that i twist the truth along with the OP, that im trying to set the balance in favor of BL, that the XL wasnt delay for a year , that because its 4k and its a toolchanger, someone  should not mention the price tag etc.

P.S.Is it this price tag a reason to complain if you get a buggy product . For me yes. Im not a millionare. Was this the point i wanted to make? No. Do i consider the XL a good product. Is going there, im rather happy with it now i was a bit frustrated when i got it -NOT THE POINT HERE THOUGH-. Am i a Bambu labs presales or chinese spy? Not. Do i complain if a brand new product that sits in the medium to high range its buggy above a threshold? Yes. DO i consider Prusa XL as a consumer product to be in that price range for large volumes and multimaterial solutions (toolchanger, idex etc). Yes.. Again not the point here. So instead of going around an around and trying to bring this conversation about if XL i good bad , if it expensive or not lets all agree that the OP and anyone for that matter, has the right to complain (while of course keeps it decent). We may disagree. And comment on that. On the same level of decency. I didnt get a lemon but i saw his videos in another post and felt sorry for him. I left it there. I didnt try to "disqualify" his experience with mine. That the real issue here.

Posted : 11/12/2023 9:20 am
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

And to give an example of what is the level of some of the comments here:

ExtraFox (estimable member): Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

Ipind3d:  This isn't an airport. There is no need to announce your departure.

Acht: Also stop whining on this forum please nobody here has anything to do with it.

etc etc.

 

Posted : 11/12/2023 9:44 am
Thejiral
(@thejiral)
Noble Member
RE: Bye bye, Prusa

I am not part of a "you" front, the opinion of others is the opinion of others, not mine. 

You said before that the XL is expensive for what it is and I happen to disagree. 

Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4

Posted : 11/12/2023 10:05 am
IPIND 3D, Acht and Zappes liked
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