Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?  

RE:

So it looks like the alternate nozzle profiles have been pushed out to the public with some very conservative speed limits in place. Checking the volumetric flow view for a benchy shows that overall, it's about the same profile across different features, just slower overall. Going to the print speed options, you can see that all the limits are significantly lower than the 0.4mm limits.

Now, because it's a larger diameter, this theoretically should offset things, but I'm guessing they wanted to play things safe with the default config.

I haven't had a chance to test anything yet, but I'm willing to bet we're able to push the speed up quite a bit for certain features (perimeters and infill specifically), which will gain a significant portion of the time loss back.

With all of this though, something to keep in mind is the actual flow rate limit in the filament settings. Default maximum volumetric flow rate is 16mm^3/sec for 0.6mm, so that will also be something to see if it can be pushed higher, especially if you have a CHT or other high flow nozzle.

Something else to consider is cooling. If we do end up pushing into some extreme speeds, we will probably be limited by the part cooling fan. Just thinking about how the X1C is designed, it's got that absolutely massive fan duct on the side to take care of this. No such thing for the mk4, so we're limited by the old school cooling physics.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

I agree with you on many points but if the layer height is the same as .4 and also the line width is minimally higher, it should not be a problem for cooling. The time difference in benchy to the profile without IS with 0.6 is just 10min. That is a joke. And if that's so great with a 0.6 nozzle, what's it like with a 0.8? Why should I print with a 0.6 nozzle if I need twice the time of the 0.4 nozzle?

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

If you compare both profiles, the speed and acceleration at 0.6 are significantly slower.

The speed can be explained by the nozzle. The maximum flow corresponds to the speed.

Acceleration is minimized in all new profiles. I assume for quality reasons.

Cooling can still become a problem. There are printer where an additional fan is attached to the X axis to blow over the whole bed like the Bambu.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

But for me IS with 0.6 nozzle is so pointless. That was actually the advantage that you need less printing time with a 0.6 nozzle compared to a 0.4 nozzle, because you could print wider lines with the same layer height. What does the larger nozzle bring me now?(Except wider walls in vase mode).

RE:

Found the discrepancy.

It's actually in the filament settings, under cooling:

Slow down if layer print time is below:

The 0.4mm profile uses 6 seconds. The 0.6mm profile uses 14 seconds. If you drop it back down to 6 seconds, you should get an identical print time to the 0.4mm profile.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

Maybe there is a reason for this change? 🙄

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

Of course. It is very clear here that IS was never planned for the Mk4 from the beginning and that this was a short-term decision on the part of Prusa. They were probably afraid that otherwise the customers would run away (to Bambu, etc.). Who have now followed with the P1S and Prusa unfortunately more and more falls behind. Too bad. That's how I see it. Do not get me wrong, I love Prusa but I just have the feeling that one has rested on its laurels too much or still does.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

Do you think the Bambulab and others have these extremely loud fans that go all over the bed?

Do I want that. Or did I choose the MK4 because it is relatively fast and still comparatively quiet.

You could always add such an external fan to it. This is also done with other bedslingers.

If I just wanted to print stuff like that, the MK4 wouldn't be my first choice. The MK4 has other advantages and disadvantages as well. Like everything in life.

A Bambulab does not only have advantages. Yes they did some things very well and put the pressure on the other manufacturers.

But they admitted that not everything was great in an interview. There are several hardware versions. And unlike prusa, you cannot upgrade. In the event of a repair, you must first find out which version you have. No fun......

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

I came on here to ask the same thing. I just put down a default cylinder, its almost twice the time of the .4 version, and only a couple of mins faster then the non input shaping version.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

It makes 6min difference e.g. with my Card Box. 1:20 vs 1:14

Posted by: @carlmmii

Found the discrepancy.

It's actually in the filament settings, under cooling:

Slow down if layer print time is below:

The 0.4mm profile uses 6 seconds. The 0.6mm profile uses 14 seconds. If you drop it back down to 6 seconds, you should get an identical print time to the 0.4mm profile.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

@Rainer: I think you're missing my point. It's clear that I can't reach the speeds that a Bambu achieves, etc.. But if I already bring out an IS profile for a larger nozzle, the printing time should be at least as high or lower than that with the smaller nozzle. Otherwise, the larger nozzle makes no sense and is obsolete. 

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

0.6x0.2x135=16.2mm²/s it will need a high flow nozzle.

I don't know how conservative the value of Prusa is. You have to try how much it really brings.

35mm²/s  with high flow nozzle you can print at 0.3 layer height with the speed of the current 0.2 speed profile.

It's all alpha just wait and see.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

You are pushing much more material with bigger nozzle. So it is not possible to print with as high feedrate as with 0.4mm nozzle unless the hotend/nozzle can handle melting it fast enough. High flow nozzle will help with this limitation. Similar situation is with the cooling. More material needs more time to cool down, therefore you need higher value for minimal time per layer. Will it slow down tiny objects like the Benchy? Yes, the Benchy is mostly about cooling even with smaller nozzles. Is the big nozzle suitable to print such things in general? No.

RE: Input shaper with 0.6 Nozzle. Why is the print Time so high?

The question is, is it slower on just the benchy, or all models you slice? Been a few months, but I briefly had a 0.6 mm nozzle on my Mini. Slicing a number of models for both 0.4 and 0.6 nozzles, if I recall correctly, most, but not all, models printed faster with the 0.6 mm nozzle. Some models simply do not lend themselves to faster printing with an 0.6 mm nozzle.

Just because a single model takes longer in 0.6 mm nozzle does not mean that there is not an advantage to the 0.6 mm nozzle for the correct application. The benchy is rather small. Big nozzles shine in cutting off time on large models; especially large models with few details and long runs, like cases and such when you can crank the layer height up.

Posted by: @cloud1983

@Rainer: I think you're missing my point. It's clear that I can't reach the speeds that a Bambu achieves, etc.. But if I already bring out an IS profile for a larger nozzle, the printing time should be at least as high or lower than that with the smaller nozzle. Otherwise, the larger nozzle makes no sense and is obsolete.