Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Let's preface this by saying that I own 6 MK3S+ printers, and two MK4 printers. The MK3S+ machines print wonderfully, I start a print and walk away, and I've had exactly 0 failures due to first layer adhesion in the past year (I run an etsy shop, and run my machines all day long). I print only in PLA.
On the MK4, one out of every 6 prints will fail. Every time, it's because the first layer is too high. It will be consistently high across the whole build plate. It happens with multiple different brands and colors of PLA. I've started wiping down the nozzle with a brass wire brush every time I change filaments, but that doesn't always prevent the issue. My guess it's due to filament oozing out, but not squishing out of the way when the printer probes. This means for every single print I have to stand at the machine, wait for it to warm up, try to wipe the nozzle right before it homes, and then wait until it's printed enough for me to see if the first layer is correct or not. I am not a fan of having to stand at the machine for 5 minutes every time I want to start a print. I don't have to do this with any other of my machines (MK3S+, Bambu X1C, Voron, even past Ender 3).
Will the 6.x firmware that's being tested help with this issue? Will there ever be a way to adjust the homing pressure? I'm not going to update the firmware until it's been officially released and out for a little while. However, if this won't fix the issue, I'm struggling to figure out what to do. If I can't get this resolved I'll likely get rid of the machines, which is a shame, as I do like the print quality. I'd happily pay to upgrade to a MK4S (or whatever they'd call it) if it had a nozzle scrubber which would solve this (like the Bambu printers). I know I'm not the only person having this issue, but I just don't understand why it's happening so often, or what else I can do to fix it.
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
With all respect for your professional work and experiences I have no clue about how you end up with first layers like the one you have attached - and in pink!
My modest experiences are the almost exact opposite to yours. I have the last years been working with my MK3 printing mainly my sculptures with Colorfab" PLA Bronze Fill, with great satisfaction, but also with regular need of repairs and too often major problems of first layer calibrations - my fault, surely.
My MK4 is simply another world of 3D printing. I'm astonished by the quality of the first layer printing it which this MK4 delivers every time and totally autonomously and not to mention the speed and almost silence. Hats off for the Prusa team.
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
With all respect for your professional work and experiences I have no clue about how you end up with first layers like the one you have attached - and in pink!
My modest experiences are the almost exact opposite to yours. I have the last years been working with my MK3 printing mainly my sculptures with Colorfab" PLA Bronze Fill, with great satisfaction, but also with regular need of repairs and too often major problems of first layer calibrations - my fault, surely.
My MK4 is simply another world of 3D printing. I'm astonished by the quality of the first layer printing it which this MK4 delivers every time and totally autonomously and not to mention the speed and almost silence. Hats off for the Prusa team.
I also have no idea how my first layers keep coming out poorly. They aren't always this bad, this was one of the worst, but it clearly shows how the lines are just too far off of the build plate. Most of the time when it happens, the lines look fairly clean, but you can clearly see gaps in between them, and once the object is part way through printing, it starts to lift off of the bed.
My MK3S+ machines all run nearly flawlessly. Every few months one of them will need some work, a replaced thermistor, or fan, or something like that, but when I'm busy with my etsy shop, I run them as close to 24 hours a day as I can, so I expect needing some maintenance from time to time.
I would gladly use a Pinda with my MK4 to fix this issue, even if I have to recalibrate it when I change nozzles (which I rarely have to do, even with continuous printing). The print quality is quite nice, and while I have more extruder issues with jamming on the MK4 than the MK3S+, it's within a reasonable limit.
For the things I'm printing, getting the highest possible quality isn't the biggest concern, so I can push my MK3S+ machines faster than normal, and while I do get some artifacts (ghosting), they just work. The MK4 prints at the same fast speeds with no artifacts, and if the first layer would work every time, I'd really love the machines. Right now I kind of hate them. I moved away from other machines to Prusa because I just wanted them to work, and with the MK4, that just isn't the case, and I wish I know how to fix that.
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
There's a few diagnostics you should try before giving up:
1. Make sure the nozzle is installed tightly, both screwed into the heat block and the thumbscrews are tight.
2. Check that there isn't something pulling upwards on the filament or Bowden tube, which might cause the pressure sensor to trigger before hitting the build plate.
3. Could the Z-axis be binding somehow - make sure you can rotate the threaded rods by hand, recalibrate, etc.
4. The filament oozing is a potential issue - but since the same filament on MK3S works fine it seems unlikely to be moisture. Maybe the thermistor on the hot end isn't reading correctly and it's too hot during the probe? Do you have a second? Or did you say you have 2 MK4s and they both do it? Are you using gcode sliced specifically for the MK4 profile?
Other more experienced people should chime in here...
Prusa MK4 since Jan 2024, Printables: @MikeB_1505898
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Screws are tight, filament goes through reverse bowden tubes with plenty of slack, so no upwards pressure, Z axis is completely fine. I'm using custom print settings, but using the MK4 printer profile, and my print settings are tweaked in ways that have no impact on first layer homing. The issue is clearly the first layer not homing correctly, as I can cancel a failed print, start the exact same file, and it will print fine (or the other way around). I end up printing a lot of the same files over and over again, and it doesn't matter whether I've printed the same thing 100 times, consistently about 1/6 will have first layer failures. This is on 2 different MK4 printers, one self built and one preassembled.
I think I'm going to try going into the gcode and see if I can bump up the temperature when probing. At this point I'd rather have some bits of ooze on the print bed, but have the filament soft enough to push out of the way when probing. Maybe that will help fix the issue.
since the same filament on MK3S works fine it seems unlikely to be moisture.
On the contrary, wet filament is more likely.
The Mk3 senses the distance from the metal of the print sheet. The Mk4 & XL sense the contact pressure which, if other factors are equal, automatically compensates for wearing nozzles -
BUT:
If there is filament hanging from the nozzle a small pad of filament can confuse the sensor. The OP is correct to clean the nozzle before printing and with dry filament this is almost always enough (My experience is only with the XL but the system is the same.) If the filament is wet, steam causes expansion in the hotend and it oozes, this is also the main cause of the little 'zits', tiny bobs on the build-sheet, that careless users often complain about.
Possible causes of damp filament at start time - apart from lack of drying and poor storage, include leaving the filament on the printer after finishing a long print and not changing/drying before the next and loading a printer then waiting before starting the next job - a problem common with those who operate a printer remotely.
Will the 6.x firmware that's being tested help with this issue?
No.
Cheerio,
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
The filament can ooze whether it's wet or not if it gets warm enough. I've printed thousands of rolls of filament, and at least 2-300 on the MK4, it's not a moisture issue. I can get a roll that will work fine for 5 prints in a row, then fail once, than work fine a few times, then fail a few times, etc. There is no rhyme or reason to it. I've also not had this issue with my Bambu, which also uses the nozzle to set bed height.
When the MK4 gets the first layer right (which it does 80-90% of the time), it works wonderfully. I just don't want to have to sit there for 5-10 minutes before each print to deal with the times where it doesn't read correctly. I'd gladly have it push harder into the print surface when homing, even if that means it will wear out faster, to get it to correctly probe 100% of the time.
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
And for a moment, let's assume it was moisture related. This means nearly every roll of filament I'm using has "too much" moisture to use in the MK4. Rolls which print flawlessly on every other printer. I've used rolls that clearly have moisture issues. I've got a dehydrator which I use from time to time. But I go through several rolls of filament every day. If this machine can't work correctly with filament that I haven't dried myself, than that's a design flaw. Sure, there will be rolls of filament that are super wet and can't be expected to print correctly. Sure, filament prints better the drier it is. I store all of my filament in bags with desiccant, and for most rolls they are completely used within weeks of when I get them. If the MK4 can't reliably home with filament that otherwise prints perfectly, than there's a flaw in there somewhere.
I've got a dehydrator which I use from time to time.
It makes sense to dry every filament before use. If you have several printers then it might pay to build a dryer cabinet big enough to store all current spools - even your Mk3 prints will benefit.
At this time of year humidity is a huge problem here, I have been printing small parts from TPU all day - but after lunch I changed the half empty spool for another, identical but dry spool (putting the used spool to dry) in order to keep the printing clean and easy.
It sounds as if you are using hobbyist machines in a business setting, yes, you save 90%+ on plant costs but at the running cost of additional service and maintenance time. If the printing itself is your principal activity then other manufacturers; Stratasys, Markforged, Eos, AIM3D - even Epsom, have industrial pellet printers that might be more suitable. Visit one of the industry shows and see what's on the market - Are you in the USA? Rapid+TCT in June would be a good choice.
Cheerio,
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
I'm really not sure how to respond, but I've never had to dry most filament before using. No one I've ever spoken to who runs a print farm using PLA dries all of their filament before using it. I'm sure there are some people who do, but I've yet to talk to one. If you're printing with TPU, or PETG, than yes, moisture is definitely a big concern, and you need to treat it differently. I'm printing PLA, in a dry environment, and keep unused spools in separate dry bags. Yes, from time to time I get a roll that is wet and needs to be dried before it prints well. I have not needed to dry 99% of my filament on any other printer I've used, the MK4 is the first one that I've been having these issues with. My applications don't require an industrial machine, I'm mostly printing organizers for board games. When I put a roll on my printer, it's completely used up within 2-3 days, or goes directly into a dry bag after use. If small amounts of moisture, which are completely unnoticeable on any other printer, are the cause of my problems, that is a poorly designed machine.
Since I have a filament drier, I'll put a couple of spools in there, get them nice and crispy, and see if that helps. If that is the solution, than I'll likely be selling the MK4 machines. It seems ridiculous in my mind that you would need to dry your filament just to get your machine to probe correctly.
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Diem - the problem of filament dryness is real, but the biggest factor related to that is the relative humidity of the environment you're printing in. If you live in the Amazon rainforest then keeping your filament dry is going to be your biggest concern. But here where I live, Canada, the relative humidity inside my house *with the furnace humidifier running* is 20% at 20.5C. My enclosure as I'm printing right now is 11% at 29.0C. It's sufficient in my environment to store the spools in ziplock bags with desiccant - half of my bags have a humidity sensor in them, and they're never over 20%. I don't even own a dryer yet (although I haven't printed TPU yet either). Drying still needs to be considered but it doesn't appear to be the most likely cause... but if you have reason to believe otherwise how can he test it. Mark's pattern of perfect prints followed by a single print with a bad z-offset doesn't seem to fit the wet filament theory - why wouldn't it happen every print? Wouldn't the prints have other issues besides z-offset? It just doesn't make sense.
Mark: have you observed the bed probing on a failed print? What happens?
Prusa MK4 since Jan 2024, Printables: @MikeB_1505898
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Mark: have you observed the bed probing on a failed print? What happens?
It probes just like normal. Nothing is different on the prints that fail. They just start printing higher than they should. They are consistent around the entire build plate, if I let it go, there will be even gaps between the lines across the entire plate. The photo I showed above was the most extreme example I've seen, but on prints where it's not that severe, you'll see the gaps between filament lines are completely even everywhere. It's clearly probing the bed, and clearly is not getting an accurate reading. The only thing I can think of is that it's related to filament oozing, but even if I use a brass wire brush to wipe off the nozzle right before it gets to 170 degrees, I will still sometimes have failures.
I really wish you could just adjust the pressure of homing. The Bambu, aside from having a wiper, has a spot on the build plate where it rubs the nozzle. While this wears out that area (which is outside of the print area), it also ensures that anything that was stuck is now pushed away from the bottom of the nozzle. I have a feeling my issue could be solved if the nozzle just really wiped itself solidly on one corner of the build plate every time, hard enough to push anything there out of the way, and then immediately probed.
Mark's pattern of perfect prints followed by a single print with a bad z-offset doesn't seem to fit the wet filament theory - why wouldn't it happen every print?
The immediate cause is probably the small pad of semi-solid filament compacted from oozings - if too big it may be dislodged, if small it may compress to insignificance...
Wouldn't the prints have other issues besides z-offset? It just doesn't make sense.
You will probably see changes in surface texture and stringing, depending on the print this may or may not have consequences.
It's not unusual for a long print; especially PETG & TPU, to deteriorate in quality as it progresses, multi-material prints are more often affected, as moisture is absorbed faster than the filament is used.
Today the first few prints were fine but then a few 'zits' on the build-sheet were the sign that it was time to change spools.
Cheerio,
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Mark's pattern of perfect prints followed by a single print with a bad z-offset doesn't seem to fit the wet filament theory - why wouldn't it happen every print?
The immediate cause is probably the small pad of semi-solid filament compacted from oozings - if too big it may be dislodged, if small it may compress to insignificance...
Wouldn't the prints have other issues besides z-offset? It just doesn't make sense.
You will probably see changes in surface texture and stringing, depending on the print this may or may not have consequences.
It's not unusual for a long print; especially PETG & TPU, to deteriorate in quality as it progresses, multi-material prints are more often affected, as moisture is absorbed faster than the filament is used.
Today the first few prints were fine but then a few 'zits' on the build-sheet were the sign that it was time to change spools.
Cheerio,
That's an amazing challenge - it must be very humid and warm where you are!
Prusa MK4 since Jan 2024, Printables: @MikeB_1505898
Not particularly warm ... today we have sunshine, two days ago I woke to thick fog and a light drizzle. If the wind comes off the sea it will be damp, if from the continental south it might even bring desert dust with it.
Cheerio,
RE: Will newer firmware help with first layer failures?
Mark, I have also been experiencing this.
Every now and then, first layer is higher.
Filament is dry and bed is always clean.
I tend to get around this by turning the Mk4 off and then on again and I will sometimes wash the textured sheet with dish soap and hot water, just to make sure it is actually clean. Next print will then generally be ok.
I haven't discussed this with Prusa Support but given it is being experienced by others, perhaps it should be raised with them.