RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Ed, please keep politics out of this forum.
No politics just truth.
If what Diem said isn’t political then my response isn’t.
No, it's your "truth" not mine. It's politics and it doesn't belong here. I 100% disagree with your statement above but if I write a response based on what I really feel it will just inflame the conversation. Therefore, it doesn't belong. This is a 3D printing forum not a forum on the 2nd amendment or MAGA dog whistles.
You can't separate the topic from politics; it is only one group politically that is pushing for this legislation. But, if that's going to be your stance, you need to keep YOUR politics out of it too.
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Explain to me then how "socialists" and "gun violence" in Chicago is relevant to the topic?
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Explain to me then how "socialists" and "gun violence" in Chicago is relevant to the topic?
They are the people advancing this legislation, and the violence in places like Chicago is the purported justification. It's not the actual reason, of course, which is that they don't want the proles to be able to manufacture their own firearms at will, because it threatens their entire disarmament agenda. Other reasons, of course, are that they despise the sort of gun geeks who want to build guns for their own amusement, and because it is a lot easier and safer to target people who just want to enjoy their hobby in peace, than to go after actual violent criminals.
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Funny that cyclical argument… but let’s continue that circle and discuss the consequences of allowing violent criminals almost unhindered access to devices to do violence… what’s the outcome? Remove the politics and just develop some common sense
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
If what Diem said isn’t political then my response isn’t.
I don't see how it's political, surely all reasonable political parties understand the need to protect all their citizens from violence?
Can you give us some examples of “mildest gun controls” you think the US should implement?
Start with something simple like no magazines, single shot load per barrel.
I thought the same thing but it requires a lot more skill and it's not something you can setup in a bedroom.
You don't even need a lathe for a crude firearm, in Aden - Yemen in the 1960's terrorist guns of a sort were made from plumbing parts.
I probably shouldn’t have used the word Socialists but if they call themselves Socialist and they act like Socialist why can’t I call them Socialists??
Probably because the US doesn't really have any socialists, not organised ones - it has a centre-right party and an extreme far right party ...
3d printer laws are political laws written by people who are against the 2 amendment.
Not really, they are written by people reacting to scaremongering and who don't understand science or technology; what have they amended?
The real issue is the attempt to make a (bad) local law globally enforceable
sharing files that could be deemed “part of a gun” would be under scope. So it could impact the community that way
There are in any case a ridiculous number of weapon-related parts on printables, I doubt many are viable but it would do little harm to remove them ....
However
Reductio ad absurdum: Screws are used to hold gun parts together, therefore making anything with a thread is now illegal.
Cheerio,
Where are you getting your info about the US? Your opinions about the US are very different then the US I live in.
You can add the prime minister of Japan to your list of people killed by homemade guns not 3d printed.
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
To me this topic is is about preserving privacy rights, and artistic freedom. I don't believe for a second these laws will end at printing guns. If the maker world does not advocate for itself then who will?
This problem is a good example of why it is soooo important to vote in your local elections!! We need to do a better job at keeping the far left and right out of government.
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Explain to me then how "socialists" and "gun violence" in Chicago is relevant to the topic?
If you go back and reread my Post you will see it’s a response to something Diem wrote. Make sure you read what he wrote before you read my response.
Lets just say I’m not a big fan of people who don’t live in the US telling people that do how we should be running our country.
I agree the word socialist is probably not the right word but more and more people on the far left are calling themselves socialists so that’s the word I use. Woke, Leftist, Marxist, far left are all names the right calls the left so I don’t like to use them. If you have a better word let me know??
RE:
Let’s just say I’m not a big fan of people who don’t live in the US telling people that do how we should be running our country.
I agree the word socialist is probably not the right word but more and more people on the far left are calling themselves socialists so that’s the word I use. Woke, Leftist, Marxist, far left are all names the right calls the left so I don’t like to use them. If you have a better word let me know??
The irony here is the US has been dictating and driving for overreaching control outside the US for decades. So you don’t like when people external to the country form an opinion when the US has such a global influence on the rest of the world, even in this area of controls on 3d printing?
That level of influence unfortunately seems to be lost a lot by the American people.
Nothing in US politics is really socialist. Possible policies are left leaning and have minor philosophy in socialism but in reality what you are describing is a centralist party with some elements within it that are left leaning. Socialist it is not though!
Woke, Leftist, Marxist, socialist are all very different descriptions. Bar woke none is really an offensive term anywhere other than in the US 🤣 same goes for liberal or conservative. These terms seem to have been weaponed to belittle each side but in reality they in themselves just describe where a person falls on a spectrum that influences there world views and ideals. Ironically the liberals of the 70s are more probably today’s conservatives.
I do wish there was more education in the US in social sciences in school. To note social science isn’t the study of socialism but just the term used to describe a grouping of education which includes a lot of what I have outlined above. Critical thinking is key to this. The world isn’t as black and white as is made out.
You’re right though, I’ve already spent enough of my time on this thread. I will leave it to the US citizens…
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Let’s just say I’m not a big fan of people who don’t live in the US telling people that do how we should be running our country.
I agree the word socialist is probably not the right word but more and more people on the far left are calling themselves socialists so that’s the word I use. Woke, Leftist, Marxist, far left are all names the right calls the left so I don’t like to use them. If you have a better word let me know??
The irony here is the US has been dictating and driving for overreaching control outside the US for decades. So you don’t like when people external to the country form an opinion when the US has such a global influence on the rest of the world, even in this area of controls on 3d printing?
That level of influence unfortunately seems to be lost a lot by the American people.
Nothing in US politics is really socialist. Possible policies are left leaning and have minor philosophy in socialism but in reality what you are describing is a centralist party with some elements within it that are left leaning. Socialist it is not though!
Woke, Leftist, Marxist, socialist are all very different descriptions. Bar woke none is really an offensive term anywhere other than in the US 🤣 same goes for liberal or conservative. These terms seem to have been weaponed to belittle each side but in reality they in themselves just describe where a person falls on a spectrum that influences there world views and ideals. Ironically the liberals of the 70s are more probably today’s conservatives.
I do wish there was more education in the US in social sciences in school. To note social science isn’t the study of socialism but just the term used to describe a grouping of education which includes a lot of what I have outlined above. Critical thinking is key to this. The world isn’t as black and white as is made out.
You’re right though, I’ve already spent enough of my time on this thread. I will leave it to the US citizens…
I disagree with you on most of what you said but this forum isn’t the right place for that kind of debate.
I do agree that “The world isn’t as black and white as is made out.”
I wish people would stop yelling and start talking to each other. You might just find out you agree on more then you think you do.
RE:
Right. But it's OK for us to do the same? Basically any foreign war we've been involved in since WW2?
Black people sometimes use the n-word when referring to themselves, so perhaps that's the word I should use? I am progressive. I don't consider myself a socialist.
Let's just stop here. This is exactly why political discussion doesn't belong on a hobbyist forum. Most forums I'm on (that originate in the US) ban such discussion outright.
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
For here, on the forums, you are welcome to discus things, BUT I would like to remind people to please, be respectful to others and also please try to be as non-political as possible (yes I know, it's difficult when it comes to laws and government). Just keep things respectful and civil. Same if you are going to contact lawmakers.
Ok, so please do not make me regret not just posting the original one, and then NOT locking it down.
I am addressing this to EVERYONE, not to any one nor several people. I was serious when I said to please be as non-political as possible and for any argument of politics and truth is literally pointless as its the same thing with trying to argue ones opinions. No one is right, no one is wrong, it is how people think. The one thing I do expect is for people (in general) to be able to carry themselves to openly discuss or debate things without turning into pointless arguments.
So congrats, you got gramps out from working in the garage and will now leave this one warning.
This forum is for the community in order for you all to talk and share ideas, thoughts, projects, and assistance (if one chooses to do so) with the Prusa community. It is not a place to turn into a heated argument. There is a time and place for it, and having a meaningful discussion is always good, having a heated argument and not moving on results in threads getting locked down or deleted and other things...
So please.. behave and play nicely with one another.
(yes there is some tongue and cheek in here, but this is me being somewhat nice at the moment)
Shane (AKA FromPrusa)
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
i apologize if this is a repost of prior ideas. Apart from the politics, this is a tricky issue because of the possibility for company-owned liability for customers' actions. interestingly to me, there are parallels here for emission control laws on cars, and media copyright controls. We can draw ideas from those fields, but i think society loses out as a whole due to laws that penalize the majority of members due to the [possibility of] bad actions of few. However, this is clearly an issue that society must face when governments choose to enact laws that try to prevent bad behavior instead of punishing it.
What options are available?
- make one firmware that complies with all global rules. Assuming that laws have overlapping compatibility such that this is even possible, this results in loss of freedom and increased cost. This would require locking down the hardware and software so that it could not be modified to bypass.
-fork the firmware with region-locked branches for different laws. In this case, product complexity will add cost. There would also need to be a mechanism to handle or prevent movement or updating of unauthorized software between/in regions with incompatible rules. Again, software would have to be locked, including the software distribution/update paths.
-release official firmware that is compliant with restrictive laws, but attempt to operate in a legal grey area without preventing unofficial device modifications. For instance, the custom firmware/bootloader pcb bridge on the prusa could be considered customer consent to own liability for all subsequent printer output. This is very tenuous because it only partly addresses laws' intent to prevent bad behavior.
-stop selling in the markets with restrictive laws. In this case, is the company still liable for customer actions if a non-compliant unit is smuggled in? The software may still need a region-detecting mechanism to lock down the device, otherwise liability could remain. If the region with restrictive laws is a large market, the company would suffer loss of sales.
What other paths are available if a company wants to keep doing business despite these kinds of laws? How does one quantify the benefit of loss of freedom in the face of increased perception of safety?
RE: Current "stance" on several proposed several US states laws in regards to 3D Printing.
Since the first humans learned flintknapping, we've made tools and with those tools, stuff. Most laws to limit modern versions of that activity have failed. The Artificers Act of 1749 to maintain Britian's manufacturing monopoly or the Frank's ban on exporting and selling swords to the Vikings. And a hundred other examples. Heck, even prohibition ultimately failed. There's no such thing as firmware and software that can't be hacked- that genie is way out of the bottle.
Lets just say I’m not a big fan of people who don’t live in the US telling people that do how we should be running our country.
Understandable. Just imagine how the rest of the world would feel if the US ever tried to do that to them.
What options are available?
None if the global liability ambition remains. The only option would be to move to and manufacture in a country with no extradition treaties and never leave.
Cheerio,