RE: Update...(Kind of)
Speaking of which, those plastic rivets were one of the deciding factors for me to look elsewhere. Small issue? Maybe. But it's just the icing on the cake when Core One has decided you have to take it apart.
Saving pennies on screws here is totally, utterly ridiculous. Kapton tape to the rescue, further problem solving starting at the root.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Never had a problem with the rivets personally. Ive always found them easy to pop in and out.
I think if you've got big meaty paws with sausage fingers they could be a problem, but for normal sized humans with proportionate hands and dexterity they're quite a good solution.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Agreed - for those I can reach, the back of my fingernail is sufficient to push the pins out from the inside, and for those I can't then a flat blade screwdriver does the job. But on the lid, I've just left them out altogether and I allow gravity to do its work.
Never had a problem with the rivets personally. Ive always found them easy to pop in and out.
I think if you've got big meaty paws with sausage fingers they could be a problem, but for normal sized humans with proportionate hands and dexterity they're quite a good solution.
RE:
Since it became clear that the rivets are easily reusable, I am fine with them. Where accessible I prefer to push them out from the inside; quicker than prying from the outside. I don't think Prusa chose them for cost reasons, but assume it was mainly to stop users from over-tightening screws and breaking the polycarbonate panes.
Anyway, my point in bringing them up in this discussion was to point out that the "issues" perceived before a product ships are not necessarily the most relevant ones later.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Since it became clear that the rivets are easily reusable, I an fine with them. Where accessible I prefer to push them out from the inside; quicker than prying from the outside.
I don't think Prusa chose them for cost reasons, but assume it was mainly to stop users from over-tightening screws and breaking the polycarbonate panes.
Yeah this is obviously why they chose them.
Nothing to do with cost...screws are pennies, especially when you consider the quantity Prusa must source them at.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
i'm just gonna buy a TIG welder fix that when it comes here! 😏
RE:
I think the rivets are quite ingenious
Since it became clear that the rivets are easily reusable, I am fine with them. Where accessible I prefer to push them out from the inside; quicker than prying from the outside. I don't think Prusa chose them for cost reasons, but assume it was mainly to stop users from over-tightening screws and breaking the polycarbonate panes.
Anyway, my point in bringing them up in this discussion was to point out that the "issues" perceived before a product ships are not necessarily the most relevant ones later.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Update...(Kind of)
normal sized humans with proportionate hands
You haven't seen me on a piano ... "look I play with both fists" 🙂
Seriously, many of them don't survive reinsertion without VIP treatment. Putting the little princess under the stereo microscope, sure, it can be done if time doesn't matter.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Same, since building the kit have had to take the printer apart at least half a dozen times troubleshooting. I do find by the time I’m done my finger tips are sore (short nails). I’ve had mixed results with the printed rivet poppers, work initially but seem to give “blunt”. I bought a replacement bag of rivets too but I think so far I’ve only had one single rivet which I couldn’t reuse and that was probably after a number of reuses already.
Considering the significant resonance issues early on, I honest think the rivets we a design benefit rather than a flaw, allowing some dampening.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Same, since building the kit have had to take the printer apart at least half a dozen times troubleshooting. I do find by the time I’m done my finger tips are sore (short nails). I’ve had mixed results with the printed rivet poppers, work initially but seem to give “blunt”. I bought a replacement bag of rivets too but I think so far I’ve only had one single rivet which I couldn’t reuse and that was probably after a number of reuses already.
Considering the significant resonance issues early on, I honest think the rivets we a design benefit rather than a flaw, allowing some dampening.
Speaking of resonance, I never realised how quiet the C1 can be until I basically removed all the panels and just had the bare frame printing. Virtually all of the sound is resonance and the echo of the panels...the machine borders on silent when it's running with no clothes on.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Speaking of which, those plastic rivets were one of the deciding factors for me to look elsewhere. Small issue? Maybe. But it's just the icing on the cake when Core One has decided you have to take it apart.
Saving pennies on screws here is totally, utterly ridiculous. Kapton tape to the rescue, further problem solving starting at the root.
Don't think it's about saving pennies, they're the best fixing for the job without overcomplicating things. Neat, tidy, removable, no danger of cracking the panel, tried and tested on the Mk4 enclosure and the Mini+ enclosure. Screws would be overtightened by many people, and would need tapped holes in the steel or nuts held on behind...
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Same, since building the kit have had to take the printer apart at least half a dozen times troubleshooting. I do find by the time I’m done my finger tips are sore (short nails). I’ve had mixed results with the printed rivet poppers, work initially but seem to give “blunt”. I bought a replacement bag of rivets too but I think so far I’ve only had one single rivet which I couldn’t reuse and that was probably after a number of reuses already.
Considering the significant resonance issues early on, I honest think the rivets we a design benefit rather than a flaw, allowing some dampening.
What size rivets?
normal sized humans with proportionate hands
You haven't seen me on a piano ... "look I play with both fists" 🙂
Seriously, many of them don't survive reinsertion without VIP treatment. Putting the little princess under the stereo microscope, sure, it can be done if time doesn't matter.
I share your pain with my hamhock hands.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE:
What size rivets?
3.1 x 4.5 nylon rivets, same as with the kit. I ended up just buying spares straight off Prusa when putting a filament order in. Still unopened, the one I used was one of the spares that came with the kit. No doubt I could have sourced them cheaper off aliexpress though.
Speaking of resonance, I never realised how quiet the C1 can be until I basically removed all the panels and just had the bare frame printing. Virtually all of the sound is resonance and the echo of the panels...the machine borders on silent when it's running with no clothes on.
The game changer for me was when after months of back and forth with Prusa support, they eventually sent me out 1 new stepper and it halved the issues. I was able then to demonstrate to them that the original steppers were both very stiff to move and jittery versus the new one, which increased their vibrations. They sent me out a second and the difference has been night and day. Input shaper and phase stepping actually made a difference then. I still get this "rattly" resonance from the left bearing at certain points on the bed, which is worse in circular movements. I can stop it by touching the pully so possible a new bearing or jsut need to take it out and grease it but that aside, wow the difference. Whatever motors they had supplied at the start had terrible QC.
Bringing it back to INDX, this is one fear I have. That having done all that troubleshooting for noise, either the changes will bring up new resonance issues with the weight change or the tool changing itself will be noisy 🤣 It's less than a meter from my desk that I spend 40+ hrs on a week so its a real fear!
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Same, since building the kit have had to take the printer apart at least half a dozen times troubleshooting. I do find by the time I’m done my finger tips are sore (short nails). I’ve had mixed results with the printed rivet poppers, work initially but seem to give “blunt”. I bought a replacement bag of rivets too but I think so far I’ve only had one single rivet which I couldn’t reuse and that was probably after a number of reuses already.
Considering the significant resonance issues early on, I honest think the rivets we a design benefit rather than a flaw, allowing some dampening.
Speaking of resonance, I never realised how quiet the C1 can be until I basically removed all the panels and just had the bare frame printing. Virtually all of the sound is resonance and the echo of the panels...the machine borders on silent when it's running with no clothes on.
Based on this, wondering if I briefly undress my C1 and put some of that self adhesive foam tape, only the thin stuff, would help between the plexi glass and/or panels 🤔
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Have they updated the core one L with 1.5 belts?
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Have they updated the core one L with 1.5 belts?
No.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Is there any reason to ? Any VFA stuff was just anecdotal regarding the belts from what I remember.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Not sure how compelling the VFA connection is. For what it's worth, Bambu Lab have switched to belts with 1.5 mm pitch for their larger H2 series printers. Given that this must add a bit of cost (since the belts and pulleys are less mainstream), I strongly suspect they have found an actual benefit. Well, or a good marketing story...
In any case, my H2D does not suffer from VFAs the way my Core One did. Whether that's due to the different belts, I don't know.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
When does an anecdote become evidence? I found a big difference with the 1.5mm belts and pulleys, and I'm more than happy with the quality of the prints I get now - literally NO VFAs in most prints. In fact I'm so happy that I'm not interested in switching back and trying the fixes (tensions, profiles) that Prusa came out with. I figure it's entirely possible that their fixes have vastly improved the VFAs, but I love my printer with the 1.5mm belts and can quite happily live with the inconvenience of having to add the scaling command to the various printer configs that I use regularly. I must admit though that I'm slightly nervous that the INDX configs might cause me some problems in this regard.
Is there any reason to ? Any VFA stuff was just anecdotal regarding the belts from what I remember.
RE:
Not sure how compelling the VFA connection is. For what it's worth, Bambu Lab have switched to belts with 1.5 mm pitch for their larger H2 series printers. Given that this must add a bit of cost (since the belts and pulleys are less mainstream), I strongly suspect they have found an actual benefit. Well, or a good marketing story...
In any case, my H2D does not suffer from VFAs the way my Core One did. Whether that's due to the different belts, I don't know.
I could never get VFA's tamed on the Core One. Especially with slow, glossy black filaments such as PC Blend. Same prints on an H2D and they aren't really noticeable at all. So perhaps there is something to 1.5mm belts. If I remember the QiDi Q2 uses them also, claiming it mitigates VFA's