INDX - Yes or No?
I've been eagerly awaiting the opening of orders for the INDX and now this has happened, I'm not sure if I should order it now or not.
My Core One / MMU3 setup has been bullet proof and working perfectly. Quality of prints has been excellent. Only issues have been my error selecting wrong filament etc.....I have had hundreds of filament changes and never had a load issue, apart from the occasional breakage of a brittle filament.
I like the fact that with INDX I'll get quicker prints, minimal waste, won't have to worry about purge settings or reprints due to bleed if I get these wrong and be able to free up desktop space given no need for a bank of filament holders, buffer or PTFE tubes going everywhere.
Cost shipped to Australia however, makes an 8 tool version nearly as much as a Core One kit and it is here that I'm questioning do I really want / need one.
I have had the MMU3 loaded with 5 filaments on a few occasions (I like making stuff for the grandkids) so I think I would prefer the 8 tool version from the outset.
I'm assuming the cost reflects the quality of the components and technology and appreciate there will be initial issues that will need to be worked out.
So yes or no to a purchase?
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
If you want a reliable tool to make toys for your grandkids, the obvious answer would be to postpone a purchasing decision until at least the Founders Edition has been in customers' hands for a couple of months, actual user feedback is available, and the first bugs have been ironed out.
The fact that you are asking about INDX now suggests that it might be more about a new toy for yourself. 😉 Which is also a totally valid reason to buy, but only you can make the call whether you are willing to spend the requested amount of money on it.
Both companies involved, Prusa and Bondtech, have a reputation that their products will eventually work well. At least one of the companies has also built a reputation (with the Prusa XL, various MMU iterations and the Core One) that their products typically don't work smoothly right out of the gate. If you are willing to be part of the journey, are ok with spending a bit of extra money on a "Rev 2 upgrade kit" down the road, and want a new toy now, go ahead and buy. Otherwise I'd rather wait.
RE:
Yes now - if you want it fairly soon and are prepared for a few possible initial wrinkles
yes later - if you are not in a hurry
but definitely yes in my opinion.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I converted a MK4S with MMU3 to a Core One and bought a Core One L to put the INDX on. The MMU3 is in the closet to probably never be used again. I don't want to go through putting the MMU3 on just to take it off in 6 months to put on the INDX. The INDX will fix a gripe I had with the MMU3. YMMV.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
>> I'm assuming the cost reflects the quality of the components
Reflecting on my Core One, I'd disagree politely. E.g. read up on the Z spindle tolerance issue (can't be hacked around, you need to prove to support that your printer is affected to get new parts). The Z mechanism in general - the angle between print plate plane and Z axis is defined by mechanical end stops that appear more accidental than engineered, people printing shims to improve the endstop alignment (or manually calibrating against the nozzle). The umbilical support - they even blogged about it). The frame twisting under load so much some users shy away from Gyroid infill. An "advanced filtering system" that does ... well ... some filtering. And headbanging during homing - there seems to be some glitch with the firmware when it goes bonkers on repeated prints. Power cycling brings it back to sanity. Speaking of firmware, didn't they just fix input shaper axes being mixed up? Ouch ...
Don't get me wrong, it prints when I push the button but that can be bought for half the money and one percent of the effort. Thus my disagreement to above statement.
Personally, I decided to not touch the Core One for multi-material (have MMU3 for multi"color"). It would have been reason to get a second "L" but the projected time line rules that out. An XL? Thanks Prusa for the marketing mails - this started a thought process but it brings us back to square one, all alternatives considered. Fast forward the story, I own a 350 toolchanger now and it works pretty darn well 🙂
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Do you print a lot of multicolor?
If so, it would also relieve your wallet!
In addition, it is many times faster than an MMU3.
I ordered it, but I'm also in Europe, so the price is okay.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
As it is now, the INDX is an implementation or a modification/update of an existing printer ( Core One ). That means that it has to be adapted to the original design of the printer. In this case, my main objection is that the toolheads have to be located at the front of the machine. That's a real PITA when it comes to accessing the plate, performing maintenance or simply seeing what's going on. Apart from my very poor opinion of the Core One gantry design, to have the tools on front is a total deal breaker for me,
Someday, I hope, the INDX system will be integrated from scratch into the design of future printers and, of course, the tool heads will be relocated to the back, as it is with existing multitool models ( Prusa XL, Snapmaker U1 ). Until then, my answer is NO. Period.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I am going to say no.
Vehemently against AI. I've seen that film. It ends badly.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I'm anxious to see what peoples experiences are with it before I drop the money.
My current setup:
- XL 5T, one of the initial preorders
- CoreOne+, Upgraded from MK4S(which was originally an MK3S)
- MK4S, Originally an MK3S. I have another CoreOne upgrade kit sitting in the box for like a year because I've wanted Put the first core one upgrade through it's paces.
Next weekend I'm probably going to pull the trigger on updating the 2nd MK4S. I just printed out the coreone+ parts. I'd like to hear some experiences from INDX users before I drop money on upgrading one or both of them. I'm hoping that prusa doesn't abandon this like they did the XL.
It sounds like the INDX will be better for TPU, which I print more of than rigid filament, so I'm hopeful.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Thanks.
Looks like I have more time to decide what I want to do, given Prusa's first batch is now sold out. They haven't indicated when the next batch will be available.
I don't know if and when beta testers might be able to share their experiences.
If you want a reliable tool to make toys for your grandkids, the obvious answer would be to postpone a purchasing decision until at least the Founders Edition has been in customers' hands for a couple of months, actual user feedback is available, and the first bugs have been ironed out.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Thanks...some good comments.
Given the majority of the purchase price will relate to the Bondtech components, from what I have been reading aout them generally and their product range, quality should be ok.
>> I'm assuming the cost reflects the quality of the components
Reflecting on my Core One, I'd disagree politely.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I print a fair bit of multicolour, mainly relating to toys for the grandkids or toys for myself 🙂 (carriages and track pieces for my Lego train sets etc).
I have been looking at some complex multicolour prints, some involving over 1000 filament changes. Given difference between MMU3 and INDX is probably 30 seconds per change, obviously this is a big benefit of the INDX system, which would reduce print time by about 8 hours.
I'mwondering though, if the print job has a large number of filament changes, what happens if the "poop" collector gets full? I guess you'd have to keep an eye on it and pause the print if it needs emptying.
Do you print a lot of multicolor?
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I assume the INDX works like the XL. If so there's a small purge tower, but no poop really. Having spent a lot of time on MMU before getting the XL, I can tell you the tool changer is FAR superior. The mmu is a kludge that worked often(with later firmware releases) with PLA and PETG. I never tried it for things like ABS, but for TPU, fuggetaboutit. I'm guessing INDX will work at least as well as the XL. I did a Kylo Ren helmet that was 2500 tool changes on the XL. given I was using soluble supports it was black PETG, silver PETG and the soluble(aquasys 120). That would have been next to impossible on the MMU and if not the purge tower would have been HUGE. I did a grogu print once on the MMU with all 5 "extruders" where one of them was BVOH soluble filament for the interfaces and that was 105h + 1KG of filament waste on the purge block. If I were to do that print again on the XL, the purge block would be a fraction of of the size.
I print a fair bit of multicolour, mainly relating to toys for the grandkids or toys for myself 🙂 (carriages and track pieces for my Lego train sets etc).
I have been looking at some complex multicolour prints, some involving over 1000 filament changes. Given difference between MMU3 and INDX is probably 30 seconds per change, obviously this is a big benefit of the INDX system, which would reduce print time by about 8 hours.
I'mwondering though, if the print job has a large number of filament changes, what happens if the "poop" collector gets full? I guess you'd have to keep an eye on it and pause the print if it needs emptying.
Do you print a lot of multicolor?
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Given the majority of the purchase price will relate to the Bondtech components, from what I have been reading aout them generally and their product range, quality should be ok.
But a single problematic Prusa-made component could in theory make the whole functionality shaky. The print head PCB is Prusa's design (Bondtech uses a different one in their "open" INDX version), and so is the XY offset calibration PCB and apparently the side filament sensors (multiplexed?).
I'm not saying that they will get it wrong. But Prusa's track record with electronics is mixed, I would argue. In the Core One, we have seen displays not operating at the nominal data transfer rate, load cells disturbed by the neighboring nozzle heater, printers crashing from self-generated and external ESD.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Yes, my thoughts above relate to the complete system and the total cost. The proverbial chain and its weakest link...
ESD, loadcell-/heater interference, display speed: all unpopular nuisance topics that are unfortunately very real.
Bondtech have done nothing that I am aware of to warrant caution. Sure, they are European - e.g. Sweden never qualified as "developing country" in the postal sense so let's not expect them to price-match Chinese competitors. There is always risk with new electronics e.g. inductive heating is uncharted waters but I'd say there is no rocket science involved. Now firmware integration - borderline territory between corporations - here it gets interesting.
RE:
For me I bought the Mk4 kit to replace my Ender 3. Was an easy decision because: A) the Ender was crap B) at the time Prusa had the best bed slinger on the market C) was a kit. I subsequently upgraded it to the MK4S then finally to the Core One. The Core One upgrade was a no-brainer because for only $500 more I could have a Core XY printer and didn't have to sell the MK4S.
I'm getting the 8 tool INDX because for me it's only another $700 (I'm getting a Founder's edition). But then this is really a sunk cost cognitive bias. Because all-in I'm paying around $2000 for an under-spec'd tool-changer. Also, I'm not really sure I can make much use of multicolor in the long term, my project are more of a multi material variety.
As for the MMU, that ship has sailed. Every major player will have a CoreXY tool changer by next year. It's inevitable. I just did an 8hr multi-color print on my H2D with AMS and the purge waste was 3x the weight of the print! Not to mention this print would have taken < 2hrs on a tool changer. So there really isn't a place for MMU setups anymore. They were just a stop-gap until tool changers could be perfected.
If you want the experience of building a kit and doing multi-color then Core One + INDX is not a bad choice if you are not budget conscience. Otherwise, get a SnapMaker U1.
If I didn't already have a Core One would I have bought one today? Probably not because the Core One and Core One L doesn't fit my particular use case. I do also now own a H2D because I needed something that could handle multi-material engineering plastics which the Core One or Core One L (even with INDX) can't do.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Do you print a lot of multicolor?
I have MMU3 for a year now and what i found out is that it's not only useful for multicolor printing, but in general. The point is that i can have PLA, PETG, white, black... all loaded and when i want to print something (in single color) i only choose slot and it's ready to go - no unloading, loading... each time.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Once that was my idea, too, but humidity had different plans. Depends where you live, I guess.
I found the importance of dry filament can't be overstated.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
Agreed, humidity is the factor. Luckily my printer is right next to central heating stove, so humidity is not a problem.
RE: INDX - Yes or No?
I'm in the waiting camp, when I saw general orders had opened I did think about it but I will wait, it needs 6 months out in the real world to see how well it works.
There will be bugs so Prusa need time to sort these out and with the price increase which is what I paid for the Core One kit in the first place it is steep, I can imagine a ready built 8 nozzle Indx Core One costing $2k which puts you into well polished Bambu H2x territory.