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Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…  

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MME
 MME
(@mme)
Reputable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Are a few minutes that big of a issue? I don't see a issue with the short wait time as it is part of the whole process. It's a pretty big surface and frame to get consistent heat.

Posted : 11/10/2023 9:54 pm
mychaos and xilni liked
xenon
(@xenon)
Trusted Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

plus you can skip it if you only have a small part or know it won't matter

Posted : 11/10/2023 10:01 pm
mychaos liked
Erik
 Erik
(@erik-3)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

You can't skip the tool being parked while warming. Not that you should.

Posted : 11/10/2023 11:06 pm
SeattleDavid
(@seattledavid)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?

Are a few minutes that big of a issue? I don't see a issue with the short wait time as it is part of the whole process. It's a pretty big surface and frame to get consistent heat.

But is there any benefit whatsoever for this Heat Absorption process?

As you can see from the thermal imaging, there is zero point zero apparent change from he start of Heat Absorption to the end of the 7 minute wait. So why insert 7 minutes of wasted time into a process that is worthless.

And, in answer to your question, I can fully print a small project on the Mini before the XL even begins to so anything. So: yes.

 

Posted : 12/10/2023 4:51 am
Thejiral
(@thejiral)
Noble Member
RE:

The interesting part is however not the build plate which has in the case of the XL and Mk3 relatively little thermal mass, compared to eg a Voron 2.4 but the frame etc. Until the whole printer is in an equilibrium it will necessarily take longer than the mere heating of the bed. Now, the impact may or may not matter but that's what I would be wooried about. 

This truly starts to matter however once you enclose the printer and then 10 min is rather short. 

If someone couldn't care less about that waiting time, this is done by start-g-code, isn't it? Simple delete the waiting command if that is the case. 

This post was modified 5 months ago by Thejiral

Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4

Posted : 12/10/2023 9:22 am
SeattleDavid
(@seattledavid)
Estimable Member
RE:

I do not check each smoke detector in my home monthly, as you are supposed to do. Do you?

Ten minutes is precisely ten minutes. It is never short. And as I indicated, the Mini+!can have The same print completed before the XL has laid down anything.

This is why I ask the question of whether the “Absorbing Heat” accomplishes anything whatsoever.

Sometimes, people who don’t know what they are doing will build in extra precautions to protect against theoretical problems which don’t actually exist in the real world. The Absorbing Heat could be one of those, as indicated by the thermal imaging.

 

Posted : 12/10/2023 11:29 am
Erik
 Erik
(@erik-3)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Dude. If you don't like it then disable it. Things change. If Prusa decides it isn't necessary they'll remove it, too.

Posted : 12/10/2023 11:41 am
xilni liked
Thejiral
(@thejiral)
Noble Member
RE:

There is only one way to find out if the heat soaking is actually making any appreciable difference on the end product and that is not making thermal images of the heat bed but testing first layer consistency and quality at the applicable print sizes and maybe adding some dimensional accuracy test prints as well. 

As I don't have a Multitool-XL I can't do that. I do have a Voron 2.4 350mm though. Different beast but there heat soaking does make a considerable difference. Up to 80 µm difference at bed meshing. There are several reasons why that might not translate to the XL, most glaringly because it has no enclosure (natively). But I am just saying that heat soaking is not necessarily printer homoepathy. 

If you come to the conclusion that the 10 min wait is a waste of time, just delete the waiting command.

This post was modified 5 months ago by Thejiral

Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4

Posted : 12/10/2023 12:10 pm
Tobycwood
(@tobycwood)
Estimable Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

The issue is the waits reflect how little Prusa has actually worked out things like optimal task flows, procedures and setups leaving the details of working it out for their users rather than using all the time they had for this while trying to work out the supply chain. How long have we all waited?

It is not just the absorbing heat wait. Those of us with other make large format fdm machines know that most use cases don’t require probing the bed for every print. I only probe the bed for tramming on the E3d toolchanger when there’s a change in the plate which is not too often. I always get optimal first layers regardless on it.
They didn’t bother with providing their users with the nozzle temps on the panel nor in their craptastic way of looking at it through WiFi. It’s as if they did not care at all!  So when the tool is parked with zero feedback to the user there no way to know what is going on. That reflects a fairly negative attitude towards the user. Just leave them out of the loop, they don’t need to know..lets make them stand there and wait like a fool.
Then there’s the nozzle cleaning! Why do that where you may print? Leaving little bits there on the bed. Why not do it on the tabs at the front of the plate? Better yet WHY do it? If the load cell needs it to be clean then what about the other four nozzles? They don’t get cleaned! And… that leads me to something Prusa has completely ignored that we all learned with other tool changers; all nozzles need to be cleaned off completely before each print. Pulling each of the five tools out manually is a bit of a pain and shows they had no idea it needed to be done. They’ve done only the bare minimum to Prusaslicer. They’ve completely ignored the fact that the priming tower it makes can’t be used for multiple materials as in pla/PETG combos for full contact support.

HOWEVER

This IS a BRILLIANT machine which prints optimally and as a tool changer is very fast. Note it is now THE ONLY TOOL CHANGER.

All this crap is typical for Prusa. We’ve seen it in almost every product they’ve put out. They are a tiny and still immature company unilaterally led by someone filled with hubris… not all that different from what we all saw at Makerbot. Look what happened there.

Posted : 12/10/2023 3:19 pm
EnDeR Wiggin and liked
Erik
 Erik
(@erik-3)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

We aren't even sure what is absorbing heat exactly. The thermal images show little to no change of the print surface after the wait, but someone mentioned a rep said skipping could result in a temp error. So maybe it isn't the print surface that needs to time to absorb heat. The truth is that we don't know without them telling us, and speculating isn't going to help anything. If you want to skip the wait then do so. I don't mind waiting a few minutes for the print to start, so I'll let the machine do its thing.

Posted : 12/10/2023 3:34 pm
SeattleDavid
(@seattledavid)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

I waited nearly two years for my XL after ordering it until they shipped it. While some may feel that is OK, I felt burned because of the repeated delivery promises that were missed.

Then the Prusa Mk4 was released and I went: “Ah ha!, they put the XL on the side burner so they could flit to the Mk4 instead.” The XL shows a remarkable lack of polish for something two years under development.

My impression was that the XL was not much of a priority for Prusa management, and that it was the stepchild project. Also, Prusa seems somewhat sociopathic in how they treat their customers…that is: tell them anything whether it is true or not and then do whatever you want because it doesn’t matter. At least, this is how I feel.

A month of focus on the XL would be enough to really make it polished. It had a lot of potential but truly is rough around the edges.

The XL is fine but not a home run. It prints well but it does many odd things like putting away a tool and then immediately re-picking it, or cleaning the nozzle in the middle of the project area, or being unable to join spools, or absorbing Heat for 8 minutes, or vibrating like an unbalanced washing machine.

Prusa may just be brain constrained.

Posted : 12/10/2023 6:36 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Just as a side note on this. You can actually see all the nozzle temps if you enable it. Its somewhere in the menu that you can display additional info at the footer. i.e nozzle temps and sensor status. I agree there is a huge delay before the print starts and adding to this the abysmal wifi speeds is obscene. But personally i skip the heat absorption on small prints and leave it on on large ones. The main problem i have with this machine is that sometimes it gets confused during the bed leveling check and scratches the sheet (my satin sheet is fed up). But when it works and its truly a great machine with great potential. PLA as supports for PETG works great and is my goto approach and 4-5 colour PETG prints are now concluded in resonable times. No those time eating mmu2 sht praying that it wont be an  load miss at 2 in the morning. I have now a 2 day 4 color print. I'm wondering how may days would be with an mmu. For this i didnt bother with the heat absorption. But yes this machine need polish and some bug fixing.

Posted by: @tobycwood

They didn’t bother with providing their users with the nozzle temps on the panel nor in their craptastic way of looking at it through WiFi. 

 

Posted : 12/10/2023 6:47 pm
Tobycwood
(@tobycwood)
Estimable Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Ooo! Cool. I’ll take a look. I hope you’re correct.

Posted : 12/10/2023 7:30 pm
Tobycwood
(@tobycwood)
Estimable Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Unfortunately the UI panel will only show one temp on one extruder. No indication at all for which extruder it is. Regardless, during that time when we need the temp… assuming one extruder… the temp does not show. Only some dots. 
IMO they wasted time and efforts on things that probably were axed as finding the parts got hard for them. Remember that blog post about a button that would be on each tool? Well it ain’t there.

Posted : 12/10/2023 11:45 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

I uploaded a pic of my panel. On the bottom right corner you can see a T5:26. This cycles through all the extruders and shows their temp. Is this what you are referring to? By the way my firmware is 4.7.2

 

Posted by: @tobycwood

Unfortunately the UI panel will only show one temp on one extruder. No indication at all for which extruder it is. Regardless, during that time when we need the temp… assuming one extruder… the temp does not show. Only some dots. 
IMO they wasted time and efforts on things that probably were axed as finding the parts got hard for them. Remember that blog post about a button that would be on each tool? Well it ain’t there.

 

Posted : 13/10/2023 4:43 am
Tobycwood
(@tobycwood)
Estimable Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

Yes… and I notice that the print in your pic is 16% in… that’s not what I’m referring to. Look there at the start of the print right when we (supposedly) are waiting for the extruder to go from probing temp to printing temp. Also it does not state which extruder it is. Later when you start to use different materials you’ll see more of what I’m talking about. When you print multiple materials you use different temps and you do need to check them  while printing.

Posted : 13/10/2023 4:10 pm
tsamisa
(@tsamisa)
Estimable Member
RE:

Please forgive me if i'm repeating my self due to the fact that maybe i didnt get what you actually want, but the T1 circling to T5 info on the bottom right is visible all the time. On idle , while printing or while waiting. Im actually using it to check the temps of the various toolheads while waiting for the print to start. At any given point in time i can check the temp on any toolhead. And it actually states the extruder. T1-5 stand for toolhead and the rest is the temp. ie in the photo at that point in time toolhead's 5 temp is 26C while on the toolhead im printing 236. If i wait a bit the T5 will circle on its own and show the temp of the printing toolhead also. Again sorry if im explaining something different. And i also used it to check the pla loaded toolheads temp while i was printing PETG with PLA supports.

Posted by: @tobycwood

Yes… and I notice that the print in your pic is 16% in… that’s not what I’m referring to. Look there at the start of the print right when we (supposedly) are waiting for the extruder to go from probing temp to printing temp. Also it does not state which extruder it is. Later when you start to use different materials you’ll see more of what I’m talking about. When you print multiple materials you use different temps and you do need to check them  while printing.

 

Posted : 13/10/2023 4:19 pm
xenon
(@xenon)
Trusted Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

it is quite a shame. so many pixels and so little info shown

Posted : 13/10/2023 4:24 pm
Tobycwood
(@tobycwood)
Estimable Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

No need to forgive! My panel doesn't have that. So if I can turn that on what's it called?

However, the need is for us to see all five extruders all at the same time and not cycling. I have had use cases printed with PETG which use TPU for hinges and PLA for supports. As you'll soon see, the heaters do start to wear out faster with a TC and keeping an eye on your temps is something that becomes a habit very quickly. We have a progress bar on the side and yes the PNG graphic is useful when you start to ensure you're printing the correct file. However, since it's at an angle and the color change does not reflect layer height (as it does on the Raise3D) the pic does not provide info that the user will need during the print. All that space could easily be used for temp monitoring.

There's a feeling I get from this machine. Things about how they set it all up... so that it's as close to toaster like operation as possible and more than any other lower cost non-industrial level machine that costs over $100K they seem to be there. I'm finding myself (after 11 years of developing and building 3D Printers) feeling bumped out of the loop and dis-empowered. I guess thats actually a good thing. But... mark my word... you'll want to monitor your tempts for all five extruders at the same time.

Posted : 13/10/2023 5:04 pm
Papy_Yosh
(@papy_yosh)
Active Member
RE: Why the unnecessary waits before printing?…

 

Posted by: @tobycwood

lol! Interesting opinions… on the Prusaforum too! I suggest not posting these opinions on the XL group on Facebook or you’ll get flamed! Like I did.

It is interesting that we can post rants here on their own forum but get flammed on FB. Not surprising though.

Posted : 15/10/2023 8:32 pm
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