Spool Holders  

Re: Spool Holders

Failed print, reoriented on bed to show the fails:

Tower of Cascades: https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-tower-of-cascades-59808 at 130%, 194mm, 56h 07m, 4 colours, PLA, sliced with KISS.

Peter

Re: Spool Holders

[...]
Failed prints, understanding the cause of failure and knowing how to fix it is all part of the learning curve.

Thanks for the details!
(it is why I'm spending a lot of time on the forum: educating myself and learning about it)

Re: Spool Holders

Peter this is not about the potential quality of the finished product...if Samsung made a 90" UHD tv that was the finest tv ever made, that does not mean I would go out and buy it, because it still has to fit in my viewing space and allow me to sit at distance to view it properly. This is about a known footprint of this device that is essential for quality prints and that known footprint not being disclosed until now. Not sure how this discussion falls into the spamming category. I see no one throwing spears at the end result on something they do not even have in their possession yet. The real spamming could possibly occur when people who are not tracking this forum, get their MMU and come to realize these space requirements and start posting angry reviews. They would have no right to post those reviews if space requirements were posted up front. Even now, if I go through the new buyer experience and read all the information on the website about the MMU, I would have no idea that I needed over 2 feet of room "behind" my printer.

Re: Spool Holders

Peter this is not about the potential quality of the finished product...

Sorry having pulled the thread a bit off-topic, it may have been a reply to my post.

The real spamming could possibly occur when people who are not tracking this forum, get their MMU and come to realize these space requirements and start posting angry reviews. They would have no right to post those reviews if space requirements were posted up front. Even now, if I go through the new buyer experience and read all the information on the website about the MMU, I would have no idea that I needed over 2 feet of room "behind" my printer.

True. But then it surprises me that no such posts have appeared yet. I mean the first MMU2 must be in the hands of end-users now, and most likely the first users are users that frequent the forum. So I'm puzzled why there are no "problem" posts, but at the same time also why there are no "showing off"-posts.

[...]
But there are already alternative methods in use, however, you have to get the thing up and running, understand what is happening and then think about what you can do to fit it into your particular environment.

Do you have examples of such alternative methods?

Re: Spool Holders

Looking at the build process of the MMU and people getting these in the beginning of a work week plus the print times of even small examples of multi-color prints could be the reason we have not seen anything yet.

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I would just like to make it quite clear that I only am here trying to answer questions honestly. Nothing more and nothing less. I apologise if I have upset or offended anyone.

AFAIK users started to receive the MMU2 kit last week; I believe that one user posted that his was received last Thursday. So given the large numbers already shipped, I too am surprised by the lack of comments and pictures. This is something that most people would want to get built and running as soon as possible.

Regarding alternative spool positions, I have seen one user with them stacked at the side of his printer facing towards the rear which does appear to work quite well.

Peter

Re: Spool Holders

"So given the large numbers already shipped, I too am surprised by the lack of comments and pictures."

Correct - all these people are now busy doing home renovations in order to fit this kit - no time for printing 😉

Sorry - I could not resist 😀

Re: Spool Holders

I would just like to make it quite clear that I only am here trying to answer questions honestly. Nothing more and nothing less. I apologise if I have upset or offended anyone.

Much appreciated!

Regarding alternative spool positions, I have seen one user with them stacked at the side of his printer facing towards the rear which does appear to work quite well.

That is reassuring. 🙂

"So given the large numbers already shipped, I too am surprised by the lack of comments and pictures."

Correct - all these people are now busy doing home renovations in order to fit this kit - no time for printing 😉

Sorry - I could not resist 😀

😆

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I would just like to make it quite clear that I only am here trying to answer questions honestly. Nothing more and nothing less. I apologise if I have upset or offended anyone.

I don't think you have Peter. All you have done is to give your opinion honestly which is as it should be. I think it is more the news you conveyed that startled people, me included, not the way you said it. I personally appreciate your input to the discussion and hope our poor reaction to the details you shared did not offend you in anyway.

Re: Spool Holders

Correct - all these people are now busy doing home renovations in order to fit this kit - no time for printing 😉

😆 Thank you!

Re: Spool Holders

I don't think you have Peter. All you have done is to give your opinion honestly which is as it should be. I think it is more the news you conveyed that startled people, me included, not the way you said it. I personally appreciate your input to the discussion and hope our poor reaction to the details you shared did not offend you in anyway.

Thanks. As I mentioned, it was a bit of a shock to me as well; better that people know beforehand.

The staff at PR have worked very hard to get MMU2 working well, so I really do hope that users appreciate their efforts.

Peter

Re: Spool Holders

AFAIK users started to receive the MMU2 kit last week; I believe that one user posted that his was received last Thursday. So given the large numbers already shipped, I too am surprised by the lack of comments and pictures. This is something that most people would want to get built and running as soon as possible.

Could that be because after being told, "you can start printing right away without any hassle" and "the whole process is as trouble-free as possible", they were taken by surprise (as many of us have been) of the extraordinary amount of space and effort required to get the thing up & running, and are still trying to figure out how/where they're going to do that?

Initially setting it up on the kitchen table... well, that depends on one's domestic situation, and how patient one's partner is (the MK 3 has been there far too long as it is). It also doesn't help to get the thing working there, and STILL not be able to set it up properly where it had been planned since before ordering the MK 3 in the first place.

If the unload strategy is not right or there is higher friction in the feed path, then filament can string on the tip. This is then has a potential for a load fail, where the filament loads, but not all the way into the Bondtech gears. You then get one or two layers which are unprinted. In addition, this can then cause the filament to be ground down in the MMU, which can cause poor feeding from the MMU or Bondtech.

That sounds very much to me (and to the Lean 6σ Black Belt scowling at the kitchen table 😳 ) like cascading failure.
Did it not occur to you that these (and other numerous issues that have come up here and elsewhere) are essentially design issues?

Peter, this isn't about you; it never has been. Nothing I've said has been intended personally. Without your input, these issues may have remained buried for even longer (but I suspect not much longer. 🙄 )

This is (IMO) about--as I stated previously--rushing a product to market prematurely (the PPD), not being straightforward about known issues, and some... mischaracterization of the integration experience (quoted above).

As you would expect from us, we will keep updating the MMU 2.0 based on your feedback.

I would--and do--expect that. What was/is NOT expected is... well, Joel Teller (3D Printing Nerd) expressed it better than I could here (skip ahead to index 2:45 for the relevant part)--paraphrased below:

The part that concerns me about this machine isn't necessarily the upgrades or changes that need to be made; it's [PR] treating .... users (i.e. paying customers) like Beta testers, and I don't think that's OK.

[EDIT Afterthought] Peter, it's entirely up to you, but you might want to consider rewording your sig line. Some people would say that a Beta tester definitely has an affiliation with the company that utilizes them as such, especially if you've received any kind of benefit (free MMU2, spool(s) of filament, etc.)--it doesn't have to be monetary. YMMV. 🙂

Re: Spool Holders

This discussion is starting to remind me of what we saw when the MK3 was first introduced and some customers encountered a few issues--some significant, most minor.

I'll repeat now what I said then: If you expect a hobby-level 3D printer (especially a kit) to work out of the box as reliably and with as little setup as your microwave oven, you seriously need to recalibrate your expectations. This is a hobby for people who like to tinker, and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future. If you need something that works perfectly every time with no operator expertise required, then be prepared to spend at least 10x what the Prusa cost and get a lot less capability for the money.

Many of us ordered our MMU's almost a year ago, and the product we're getting is nothing like the one we ordered. In most ways that's probably a good thing. But it's understandable if you feel like you're not getting what you ordered, because you're not. Prusa is usually pretty good about cancelling orders and issuing refunds, and you can put in a preorder for a Palette 2 (which has its own issues, for what it's worth).

I would be thrilled if we could work towards six-sigma levels of reliability. But for now, I will be happy if I can get one sigma.

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as the mk3 sits now it fits in perfectly with the room as intended but if I get the mmu it will be like the proverbial sore thumb my opinion nuff said

Re: Spool Holders

On the Prusa Blog Mikolas Zuza, from Prusa, has stated:

We’re working on an updated enclosure design for the MMU, where the spools are mounted on top of the enclosure. So they can be mounted differently, but the vast majority of testing has been done with the spools behind the printer.

So let's wait and see what they come up with before getting too stressed. If they can't then there will be a lot of disgruntled people as a lot of folks don't have the room to put the spools behind the printer in their home. I like many don't have a workshop or similar and the printer is in a specially bought (expensive) server cabinet in the Living Room. The only place the spools can go is above it, so I will be unhappy if they can't come up with a method of placing them there.

While there is truth in the statements that this is a 'hobby', it has started to appeal to more mainstream people and they just don't have the room in their homes, except when stacked. This is why the Lack Enclosure is so popular. It would be good if Prusa did a poll of their customer base that asked how people store their printer(s).

This is something that designers/engineers often overlook when they come up with these things in their large workshops.

I'm pretty confident though that someone, be it Prusa or a user, will come up with a solution before long, and I will be ordering my MMU 2 once they have...

Re: Spool Holders

I don't like to critisize Prusa, as they have done so much for the 3D printer community, BUT I think they should have checked where most users have space for the spool holders, as I am sure most are mounted on desks or benches up against a wall.

Even PJR has had to place his MK3 sideways on his bench to be able to place the spools 'behind' his printer and even then has to mount them in 2 tiers.

Mine is mounted on a desk in an enclosure, so I can only utilise above or below the printer as I have 2 monitors alongside it. I am sure Prusa will find a solution, because otherwise I think their sales will be dramatically reduced.

Can the mounting bracket be modified so that the MMU is rotated so that the filament entry/exit is horizontal to help with top mounting?

Re: Spool Holders

What is the maximum spool width the official mmu2 spool holder is allowing to use?

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Sorry, but I really don't understand what you guys are arguing about. With the MMU-1, which I own, it's nothing different and it's well known for almost a year now. You have to place the spools in the right spot so that the filament can easily be pulled and pushed back and forth and the PTFE-tubes don't interfere with your print. I came up with a solution to hold up the PTFE-tubes, some filament guides on the wall behind the printer to guide the filament from the spools which I placed on the shelf below the printer - worked flawlessly until I upgraded to MK2.5, which the MMU-1 doesn't support.
You should have read the articles about MMU-1, it's all the same.

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I set my Mk2 with MMUv1 as advised by Prusa, then when it was working I moved the filament spools to somewhere more convenient...

the filament spools are situated on a shelf above the printer and the original 100mm PTFE tubes are positioned through tight vertical holes in the rear of the shelf, (within the footprint of the spool holder), the lower ends stick out below the shelf. from the back of the printer there are 4 ptfe tubes about 30cm long which plug in to the MMU inlets, these now have small black sleeves in the end, as indicators, when the printer is working, the filament in use is pulled into the extruder and fed to the hot end via the multiplexer, and this causes the two sections of PTFE tube, for that colour to butt up, end to end, and pull the filament off the spool. when the filament is finished with for that layer, the extruder retracts the filament and the spare filament ends up pushing the ends of the two PTFE tubes apart, instead of being fed into the spool holder and possibly causing an overspill, or causing the filament to tangle with other loops.

the black sleeve allows me to see, from the other side of the room, which filament is in use at any time...

I expect my MMUv2 will end up with a similar solution... Joan

Re: Spool Holders

Did mk3 upgrade to new extruder body design.
Assembled mmu2.
Attached and wired to mk3
Flashed new firmware mk3 , 3.4.0rc4
Unnecessarily flashed MMU2

I never assembled the spool holders

Solved two issues:
Mk3 didn't see mmu2. On mk3's LCD screen, listing for mmu shows n/a > Data cable from mmu2 came loose from mk3's motherboard - no latching connector. Just closing the electronics box was enough to make connector come off pins.

Extruder mk3 couldn't feed filament > Preprinted R3 extruder body from mmu2 kit had excess plastic near bondtech gear. Stopping gear from rotating. Break down whole extruder. Carefully file extra plastic, reassemble extruder.

Successful setup wizard. Good z height found.

Stop......

The spot printer as at doesn't have the space to also accommodate the spooler holders.
I upgraded the printer and assembled the mmu2 on a large table but I can't claim that space without being forced to sleep on the couch. I humbly asked the wife to just bare with me for some test mmu prints this weekend for her even just to appease. But after that I have to figure out where I can fit everything. 1st world problems, I know.