Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂  

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Hello @martin-w15 @jltx @bobstro @tiago-c

Thank you so much for your help and guidance in this project. without you i would have probably shelved it and would have not treated this waters!
Here are some prints with the installed volcano (.4 nozzle x).

These are with standard settings from the v6. Like the Baseline benchy.

So here are my settings for a 0.4 nozzle on the volcano

Printer Setup:

Volcano with 0.4 nozzle x

Filament: Prusament PETG (grey)

0.2 Quality profile

Baseline Benchy 1.5x scale

Orginal Prusament settings from v6 tuned retraction to 1.2 and Retration speed to 55. Also print temp reduced 10 degrees
Layer height .225

This is printing right now needs 3h and 37 minutes

Prusament Petg Calaculations for less print time:

Layer height: .225

Max. Volumetric Rate = Layer Height X Extrusion Width X Speed

MVS start with x *1,5 = 8*1,5 = 12

Speeds:

External perimeters:

Won't change that and keep it at 25 may even reduce this. But maybe go a bit bigger with the layer width. Any downsides to bigger layer width at the External layers?

Perimeters:

Layer width increased to 0.55

12=0.225*0.55*x > 97

Solid infill:

12=0.225*0.70*x > 76

Infill:

12=0.225*0.75*x > 71

So i get my print time reduced about 1 hour less. Which is about 30 % that is good but i hoped for more.

Questions that arose:

- How does the extruder motor know how fast to push filament ? Do i need to set a speed setting somewhere ?

- Is it more beneficial to increase layer width or speed ?

- Any other settings i could tweak without quality loss to get less print time?

- What does the Default extrusion width do?

I imagine to go faster i need to set the MVS higher. Is there some kind of test print to get the max MVS ?

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Posted by: manuel.s

[...] MVS start with x *1,5 = 8*1,5 = 12

You should be good for 25mm^3/s with a Volcano.

[...] Won't change that and keep it at 25 may even reduce this. But maybe go a bit bigger with the layer width. Any downsides to bigger layer width at the External layers?

You do want the slow speed for quality. Width shouldn't matter, but you may get less corner detail and thin parts may not print. Just be sure to preview in your slicer before starting a big print and make sure any thin walls get printed. There are options in PrusaSlicer to help with thin lines.

[...] - How does the extruder motor know how fast to push filament ? Do i need to set a speed setting somewhere ?

The printer itself is dumb as a rock. The actual amount to feed for every single move is calculated by the slicer software and added to each move (G0, G1) gcode line as the E parameter. The closest thing to a speed setting overall is the Maximum volumetric speed setting as you've noted. Of course, you can set other speeds for specific feature types (e.g. external perimeters, infill). The slicer will you your set speeds until they result in an extrusion that exceeds MVS, at which point it will throttle down to the most restrictive MVS setting you've used (either in Filament or Print settings).

- Is it more beneficial to increase layer width or speed ?

Width is almost always the best way to reduce print times without decreasing surface quality. If you can eliminate printing a perimeter by using a wider extrusion, you will save a lot of time.

- Any other settings i could tweak without quality loss to get less print time?

If you're printing thicker perimeters, you may not need much infill. Use thicker infill widths for stronger parts.

- What does the Default extrusion width do?

It's just the "anything else" setting. You can set specific widths for most items.

I imagine to go faster i need to set the MVS higher. Is there some kind of test print to get the max MVS ?

I've put together some notes. I have not been able to test with larger nozzles yet, but this should give you a general idea of what rates you can handle.

With a 0.40mm nozzle, you should be able to get much higher throughput (MVS) but it's a trade-off with print quality. The Volcano is really going to come into its own when you use much larger nozzle sizes. E3D has an article on the SuperVolcano that has some interesting comparison data.

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Hi @bobstro

Very insightful as always! 🙂

I'm at 16 now for MVS and i think i could hear extruder clicking and some infill does not lay properly anymore so i think i hit a max for Prusament PETG.

I think PLA can be printed faster.

Would you say this could be correct or can i definitely go higher with PETG and i need to tweak some other settings ?

For now this is 31 % increase in speed.

Thanks

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Posted by: manuel.s

I'm at 16 now for MVS and i think i could hear extruder clicking and some infill does not lay properly anymore so i think i hit a max for Prusament PETG.

That sounds right for PETG. The default for PETG with the V6 is 8mm^3/s. You can experiment with increasing temps to get higher, but make sure you don't suffer from oozing, stringing and surface issues if you go higher.

I think PLA can be printed faster.

I'd expect PLA to be 30-50% faster in general.

Would you say this could be correct or can i definitely go higher with PETG and i need to tweak some other settings ?

I am still perfecting my procedure, so don't take this as 100% fool-proof, but I like to start by determining what temperature I want to print a new filament with. I do a temp tower or overhang test to see how hot I can print without getting too much stringing, oozing and surface quality degradation. Then I use that temp to do the MVS calibration per the page I linked to in my previous post. That saves testing temps I'll never use. Then just test each filament if you want maximum performance. You can always use conservative settings for general printing if you're not after maximum speeds.

For now this is 31 % increase in speed.

That sounds like a good bump, especially if you're just getting started with it.  Unless doing detailed prints, I think I'd keep a 0.60mm nozzle mounted most of the time.

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Hi @bobstro

That sounds like a good plan to proceed. I turned down the temp because i could hear the filament cooking. So now i print with 230 but this is just a random guess. Im now in the pricess of getting the perfect benchy with the 30% speed increase.

When this succeeds i will try to print big to see the max infill speed 84mm/sec if that goes well and i dont have surface holes anymore im pretty much solid with the config for the 0.2mm layers. I have some little hole in the walls tho there a new line starts. But im ignoring that for now... Any tipps tho ?

I will share the configs on my github so others dont have to go through the whole testing etc. Afert that i will do a 0.15 and 0.1 profile for the prusament petg.

After that the same for real petg and then for 3dktop. Will be all in my github.

Thanks again for your tipps!

Manuel

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Ok so here are some pics with the 0.4 volcano nozzle. I really think they look very good even better than the v6 because of the better finish.

Sadly on the net it is not easy to find that you can print with a 0.4 nozzle with a volcano WITHOUT quality loss, and print time improvement. You also get stronger parts so its a triple win.

Here i made some statistics and some pics. This is a 100% benchy the 200% one is still printing....

Prusament PETG

Volcano Nozzle X 0.4mm 0.25mm layer height

10% Infill

100 % Benchy
64 min

150%
133 min

200%
222 min

250%
340 min

Same Slicer Profiles for 100% and 250%

MVS 20

######################

ed3 v6 Nozzle X 0.4mm 0.25mm layer height

10% Infill

100 % Benchy
94 min

150%
197 min

200%
405 min

250%
667 min

Same Slicer Profiles for 100% and 250%

MVS 8

#############

% increase in print time.

100 % Benchy
31% increase in print time

150%
32% increase in print time

200%
45% increase in print time

250%
49% increase in print time

########

Real World Example

Waving Groot 15,5cm (100% scale):

e3d v6: 701 min
volcano: 448 min

-> 36% increase in print time.

Corner Join piece from a friend:

e3d v6: 722 min
volcano: 262 min

This is just mental!

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Hi

Here are some pics from the 200% benchy. For me its volcano from now on 🙂

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Hi guys,

I started to collect all my profiles for my volcano with a 0.4mm nozzle. So others would not fall into my trap.

Key for me is quality and then print speed. Some profiles are tuned more than others (PETG and ASA for example).

-> https://github.com/ManuGithubSteam/Slic3rSettings_Prusa_Different_Filaments

I hope it helps 🙂

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Posted by: @manuel-s

Hi guys,

I started to collect all my profiles for my volcano with a 0.4mm nozzle. So others would not fall into my trap.

Key for me is quality and then print speed. Some profiles are tuned more than others (PETG and ASA for example).

-> https://github.com/ManuGithubSteam/Slic3rSettings_Prusa_Different_Filaments

I hope it helps 🙂

Thank you so much and thanks all for this thread. I finished the prints for martins volcano mod half an hour ago and am ready to upgrade the hotend. Didnt know where to start but this thread gave me some good advise. 

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Since this thread was active back in 2019, I've done some additional testing:

• I purchased an Artillery Sidewinder X1 with Volcano hotend.
• I mounted 3D Solex Matchless nozzles on my Mk3.

A few observations:

• Mounting a Volcano lengthens the hotend. This requires firmware modifications for the Prusa Mk3 and reduces Z height slightly. On Artillery discussion groups there are complaints that this extra length of the Volcano, while great for moving filament, introduces surface imperfections on vertical surfaces due to wobbling. An E3D heatsink + Volcano (or SuperVolcano) block is a very long piece of hardware, only supported at the top. Even with the Sidewinder's Titan Aero extruder hotsink reducing length, this is a concern. I am able to print tolerance gauges that will rotate with 0.1mm clearance on my Mk3 that require 0.15mm or greater on the Sidewinder. This may be due to or contributed to by other factors, of course.
• With a 3D Solex Matchless 0.6mm nozzle mounted, I can push filament faster through the standard E3D V6 heatbreak faster than the Prusa extruder can feed it, maxing out at something like 70mm^3/s. Even the 0.4mm Matchless nozzle can push above 40mm^3/s. To truly benefit from hotend changes, an extruder upgrade (e.g. BMG, Titan) may be required to realize the full benefits.
• The ultimate limiting factor is the filament being used. Although PETG does better with lower volumetric rates for quality, it can be pushed at much higher rates than PLA which is difficult to push much faster than 25mm^3/s. I did not expect this result, but it has been consistent across both printers and hotend types.

My recommendation to anybody owning a Mk3 that simply wants faster extrusion rates is to try a 3D Solex Matchless nozzle before making significant hardware changes. I'm able to print at speeds faster than most filaments will print well at which is more than sufficient for my basic needs.

Anybody to cares to read, comment or argue about my results can check out my notes page here.

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

An E3D heatsink + Volcano (or SuperVolcano) block is a very long piece of hardware, only supported at the top.

I made the same observation with my Mk3S. A Volcano is way more wobbly than the V6 due to the longer heating block. While not being able to prove this scientifically via print tests it is more a gut feeling.

IMHO after a few weeks of use the volcano hotend was more effort than savings. I hoped to achieve a significant reduce of print time by maintaining the same level of quality but ended up printing with a 0.4mm nozzle at almost the same speeds. I am sure the hoped for result can be achieved but needs a lot of tweaking profiles and dialing in the right settings, so this is no out of the box solution like the prusa settings with the standard hotend. I will definately come back to it later on when I am more experienced.

One thing I noticed is that it is absolutely necessary to print the extruder parts near the heater block of a more heat resistant material than PETG when intendig to print for longer times at higher temperatures. I did some ASA printing at 260° and melted my blower duct, the mount for the pinda probe and have some warping in the extruder body parts which led to even more wobble ...

RE: Volcano with 0.4/0.6 Nozzle Speed and Slicing Help needed 🙂

Posted by: @alex_sc

[...] IMHO after a few weeks of use the volcano hotend was more effort than savings. I hoped to achieve a significant reduce of print time by maintaining the same level of quality but ended up printing with a 0.4mm nozzle at almost the same speeds.

Once I started focusing on hotend throughput, I was surprised by the results:

• There's a huge difference in the increase you'll see with a 0.4mm nozzle versus a 0.6mm and above. It makes sense as back-pressure reduces flow.
• Filament type makes the biggest difference. At higher temps (240-250C), PETG is much more fluid than PLA and I am able to get twice the hotend throughput. Even among brands of PLA there is a good 15-20% difference.

The 3D Solex Matchless 0.4mm is a nice, low-impact upgrade if you just want a bit more speed. Just swap it in for a regular V6 nozzle and it will increase flows for PETG. Much lower gains for PLA.