Notifications
Clear all

SuperVolcano on a MK3s  

  RSS
Graham McIntyre
(@graham-mcintyre)
New Member
SuperVolcano on a MK3s

So while doing some COVID-19 PPE printing on my MK3, I got a wild hair while waiting for prints and bought an E3D SuperVolcano Eruption upgrade kit.  Has anyone attempted installing a SuperVolcano on a MK3?  I see some references to Volcano installs but not a supervolcano.  Is anyone aware if this mod has been done, and of the firmware / hardware modifications necessary? Thanks

Posted : 06/05/2020 7:19 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s

I know that the Volcano requires firmware modification to account for the loss of Z build space due to the longer heater block. I'd expect the SuperVolcano would require similar with even more Z lost due to the extended heater block.

I opted to install 3D Solex Matchless nozzles on my Mk3 and found that the 0.6mm version can process PETG as fast as my Mk3 extruder can feed it, with a maximum rate of close to 70mm^3/s. This is surprisingly close to the maximums I'm getting with a Volcano-style and geared extruder clone on another printer with a 1.0mm nozzle at 80-90mm^3/s.

Unless you're also upgrading your extruder to feed filament faster, I expect you'll run into practical limits on how much of an improvement you'll see over the E3D V6. The same will apply to upgrading with the TriangleLab Dragon series. The filament you're feeding will also have an impact. That same E3D V6 hotend with 3D Solex nozzle that handles PETG at 70mm^3/s can only push PLA at 22.5mm^3/s. It's a balancing act with many parts.

My testing notes are here and COVID printing notes here.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing

and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan

Posted : 06/05/2020 6:30 pm
dimprov liked
Graham McIntyre
(@graham-mcintyre)
New Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s

@bobstro

  • Thanks for the information! You bring up a good point on the extruder feed rate being a limiting factor.  I just realized i mistakenly got the 12v instead of 24v version as well, so I am may need to return the kit anyway so I will check out your recommendation as well. I have run .8 nozzle as well and titanium heat break, it will be interesting to see if the matchless makes that much of a difference.
Posted : 07/05/2020 7:05 am
dimprov
(@dimprov)
Noble Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s
Posted by: @bobstro

Unless you're also upgrading your extruder to feed filament faster, I expect you'll run into practical limits on how much of an improvement you'll see over the E3D V6. 

 

To eliminate the extruder bottleneck, which extruder would you recommend upgrading to?

Posted : 05/12/2020 8:10 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s
Posted by: @dimprov

To eliminate the extruder bottleneck, which extruder would you recommend upgrading to?

I haven't bothered on my Prusa for a few reasons...

The first reality check is that each type of filament is going to have limitations as to how hard it can be pushed.

  • Pushing PLA through a 0.8mm nozzle, I'm still topping out at about 23mm^3/s, so the Prusa extruder is more than capable of keeping up. On my Sidewinder with a Volcano mounted with a 0.4mm nozzle, it maxes out at about 32mm^3/s. I think PLA starts to exhibit non-newtonian properties, so will only be pushed so hard. 
  • Pusing PETG through a 0.8mm nozzle, I can get well over 50mm^3/s with the Prusa extruder. This equates to 0.64mm layer heights with 0.96mm extrusion widths at over 80mm/s. 

The second reality check is that most filaments can only yield good finish results over a limited range of print parameters, theoretical limits be damned. Print quality definitely starts to degrade as linear speeds increase, so the gain is in extrusion width and height, which assumes big chonky prints are OK. Even then, the actual print is going to set limits on usable layer heights. I spent a lot of time pushing these boundaries when mass printing PPE during the COVID push in early 2020. I found that testing maximum limits is fun, but at some point, you just need to print stuff that works. At above 0.4mm layer heights, PPE print quality was unacceptable for what I was printing, so even with the biggest nozzle and hotend, I was limited to that height. I didn't push the Prusa extruder hard enough to warrant replacing it.

With the build area of the Mk3, I just don't see the value in making more significant upgrades. If I need to print more big things faster, a larger printer makes more sense. I wound up with an Artillery Sidewinder X1 (direct Titan Aero extruder, Volcano hotend) for PPE printing. Being able to print 4 of the big visors at once was great, but the damned thing broke down. I've since resolved the issues with reliability, but it's definitely more of a tinker machine.

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing

and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan

Posted : 05/12/2020 8:37 pm
dimprov liked
dimprov
(@dimprov)
Noble Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s

I found that testing maximum limits is fun, but at some point, you just need to print stuff that works.

 

Yes, I totally agree.  I think the point of pushing the limits is to find out if there might be some standardized profiles that pretty much always work, but with higher effective speeds  than only just what comes out of the box.

Posted : 07/12/2020 11:13 am
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s
Posted by: @dimprov

Yes, I totally agree.  I think the point of pushing the limits is to find out if there might be some standardized profiles that pretty much always work, but with higher effective speeds  than only just what comes out of the box.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discouraging experimentation. It was the knowledge gained during that original 2018 thread that gave me an understanding of how everything relates. I fell back on that experience heavily when developing the "Max PPE" settings I used. It was only then that I realized the low Max volumetric speed settings used in PrusaSlicer for PETG are for good infill, and that by bumping temps and nozzle sizes, and not worrying about infill, I could get many times the flow rate. I was also surprised that PLA imposes maximum flow rates that are lower.

I may not have been getting 300mm/s but I was pushing 32mm^3/s out of my Prusa! I was able to pass that info on to others who in turn were running print farms and were able to multiply their output.

It's always good to push the limits to understand why they're set, and when you can "break the rules" if you're after specific results. That's why I like to share my test data.

 

My notes and disclaimers on 3D printing

and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan

Posted : 07/12/2020 3:59 pm
Martin Wolfe
(@martin-wolfe)
Reputable Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s
Posted by: @bobstro

I know that the Volcano requires firmware modification to account for the loss of Z build space due to the longer heater block. I'd expect the SuperVolcano would require similar with even more Z lost due to the extended heater block.

With the Volcano if you fit my Full Print Volume Volcano Modification there is no loss of print volume and no firmware modification required.
If you want to use a Super Volcano with a Prusa MK3/MK3S/MK3S+ looking into the Bear Upgrade as a starting point would be a good idea as it is a printer frame replacement so that the extra clearance for the Super Volcano can be built in. My Full Print Volume Volcano Modification is pretty much at the limits of what can be done eking out the extra Z axis clearance required for taller heater blocks.

Regards,

Martin

PS I am currently upgrading my mod to be based of the R6 parts so that it will include MK3S+ compatibility.

This post was modified 2 years ago by Martin Wolfe

Martin Wolfe

Posted : 28/12/2020 11:38 am
dimprov
(@dimprov)
Noble Member
RE: SuperVolcano on a MK3s

BTW, you can now change the allowable z-height in Prusa Slicer, so for a super volcano you can avoid changing the z-height constant in the firmware if you want to, provided you remember to avoid running a z-height calibration.

Posted : 10/01/2021 4:45 am
Share: