MK3S Mosquito integration  

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Anyone else notice a huge difference in print characteristic switching between brass and vanadium nozzle on their Mosquito? I only have a 40 watt cartridge in mine, but I did not expect as big drop in thermal transfer going from brass to vanadium. With a E3D bass nozzle, I get nice glassy looking PETG prints. With the Slice vanadium nozzle, I get brittle, milky PETG. It was surprisingly large drop in performance going to the  Vanadium. I have a query out to Slice. I expected more the 10% change you get with the E3D hardened steel, not going from perfect all the way to unusable output. Yes, I had boron nitride on the Vanadium nozzle threads and 1.5 NM torqued.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Also @ guy-k2, how is the titanium for PETG sticking to it?, I currently use an E3d nickel plated copper nozzle as brass was.. IS a pig to keep clean with PETG, could never get it all off.

Also wondering what the radiated heat is like with the mosquito, since no silicone sock. I've already been looking to see if there is anything that could be used as a good non stick thermal barrier between the hot end and print, but most materials are too thick and not likely to be non stick.

Been trying to find a high temperature silicone with the idea of mixing it with ground mica to boost temperature resilience and insulating properties, and maybe help with non stick properties, or something else to bond the mica into a flexible (Mouldable) form.

I have an idea that something like this could make a new high temperature sock for hot ends.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Alternatively get a mica sheet and cut it to fit behind the nozzle directly under the hot end block.

Mica is usually found in  hair dryers and holds the hot element in place, so is very resistant to heat and sounds like it could be a good candidate for hot end covers:

Physical: Mica is translucent, easily split into thin films along its cleavage, optically flat, colorless in thin sheets, elastic and incompressible.
Chemical: It is a compound hydrous silicate of aluminum, which also contains iron, magnesium, potassium, sodium fluorine, lithium and also few traces of numerous other elements. It is constant and entirely static to the action of water, acids (except for hydrofluoric and concentrated sulphur), alkalies, conventional solvents, bases, and oil. It remains almost unchanged by atmospheric action.
Electrical: Mica has the exclusive combination of uniform dielectric steadiness, capacitance stability, enormous dielectric power, high Q factor and lower power loss, high electrical resistance and low temperature coefficient. It is highly regarded for its resistances to arc and corona discharge without causing any lasting injury.
Thermal: It is highly fire proof, incombustible, non- flammable, infusible, and also can resist temperatures of up to 1000 degrees Celsius/1832 degrees Fahrenheit. However this depends on the type and variety of Mica used. It has excellent thermal stability, lower heat conductivity, and can be easily exposed to high temperatures without visible effect.
Mechanical: Mica is highly tough, having high tensile strength, elastic, and along with being flexible. It has immense compression power and can be machined, die-punched, or hand cut.

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RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

It sticks, but wipes off easily when hot. Rest of mosquito body wipes off, but you do see some discoloration where the PETG was. Yes, A high temperature sock for this would be desirable. I think I saw someone make a mold already over on Thingiverse. 

Still not happy with how my setup is working. The old ED3 V6 was better than what I'm working with now. Maybe the 50 watt cartridge will help. One is on the way. I think the bottom line issue is thermal conductance of the nozzle itself. I'm not printing PETG THAT fast. Maybe I didn't use enough boron nitride? Dunno yet. This has so many happy users and I expected to be delighted. Instead, I'm trying to get it to work as well as my E3D V6 setup.

Fortunately, all the parts are arrived for another machine build. I'll be able to keep one machine in prime shape with the other suffers what bunny scientists sling at it. 

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I would use the boron nitride for the heater cartridge and thermistor, you basically want to fill any air space, and as for the nozzle, I'd stick to good old coppa-slip, works well on the E3d so see no reason why it would not work here. (For anyone contemplating this, put a paper towel underneath the first time you heat up the nozzle, the grease component of coppa-slip will melt and run out leaving the copper behind), also extrude some filament before printing to clean any residue from inside.

Boron Nitride paste is basically a powder in solution so I might worry trying to unscrew a nozzle once the powder has dried.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Reading through the documentation for one of the Mosquito sock molds, I see I am not alone in having temperature drop issues with the Mosquito. Examining the failed prints shows the first few layers are actually OK. Once print cooling fan starts, I may as well be printing with clay instead of PETG. I even bumped nozzle temp up to 270C and dropped fan to 20%. Still problems. Going to brass nozzle made it at least functional at usual 245C, just not as nice overhangs with fan turned down.

Maybe sock and 50 watt cartridge will turn the tide

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

The boron nitride actually let the nozzle out pretty easy. BTW, I DO love their one hand nozzle change and 1.5 NM torque wrench, but heck I got it to print hotter, faster, better. Thus, far 0/3 have been achieved.

On the plus side, the whole wanting to quickly swap between extruders (I have separate E3D BNBSX on desk), has made the Bunnies seriously contemplate reworking BNBSX into a exchangeable extruder. Why should Lulzbot have that ability and not us?

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

Yes I did notice I had to increase the temperature about 15C to achieve equal extrusion characteristics as compared to the tested brass nozzle.  I think vanadium as a metal transfers heat less efficiently than brass or even stainless.  This is where I was reducing layer cooling and increasing temperature to get the glass like extrusion expected.  Not as experienced as you guys, but after getting the extrusive properties of the nozzle sorted out I loved the results.  But if there's a better multi material nozzle I'm ready to invest!  I'm on travel right now but when I get home I'll review the forum and apply some comments to testing.  Is there a baseline print you would like me to work with?  Also I'm looking forward to Slice Engineering's response.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Hi guy-k2,

You mentioned, "but heck I got it to print hotter, faster, better. Thus, far 0/3 have been achieved".  Can you help me further understand the quote?  The lingo is a little over my head .

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I had to increase the temperature about 15C to achieve equal extrusion

I guess we won't be downloading any gcode files from Prusaprinters. 😎 

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

My 2¢,

When setting up the Mosquito for the MK3S it became obvious there was a difference in thermal characteristics between the factory PID for the supplied hotend and the Mosquito.  After performing a PID tune things really settled out for the Vanadium nozzle.  Also the supplied thermistor was sending ~7C warmer than true.  This alone forced me to tune the print 5C above the Prusa sliced gcode settings.  With the PETG that I'm using a (again another variable in the soup) 10C bump gave excellent results with some minor cobwebbing.  As pointed out printing downloaded gcode requires an "accuratly" temperature calibrated machine with a specified filament chemical composition.  Then of course prior to posting the gcode for download it needs ran and tested on a properly calibrated machine and again with a known filament composition.  I've been disappointed in the accuracy of thermistors in general.  Most of my temperature calibration time has been spent on troubleshooting and verifying thermistors with a known good external meter and probe.  I have a feeling that thermistors in general are problematic and are often the Achilles heal to many printing issues.  Bad thermistor = bad PID tune.  Bad numbers in the table as related to the true resistance of the thermistor = problems across the temperature range and so on.

Hip bone connected to the tail bone and not interchangeable.....  For myself I'm not sure if downloadable gcode has a strong future unless all machines and filament compositions are equal.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I don't believe in downloadable G-Code as well, downloadable export plate as stl, yes, because sometimes whilst slicing a print I find it will try to print a solid layer into thin air depending on the fill pattern and % infill, and I have to play with different fill patterns and % infill or how many perimeters etc to get a good solid clean print. Or sometimes someones design really requires just a bit of support in key places because they are trying to print into mid air, and sometimes a .stl needs to be rotated for best cooling of overhangs, so in these cases exporting the model ready for slicing as an export plate stl could be a good idea, this could then be used with your individual filament settings and printer settings and sliced on your machine where your custom code gets added.

The idea is good, but just taken a bit too far, but should be an import plate with print settings and any modifiers set up ready for final slicing, this way you can check what has been set / changed and possibly learn something new as well, blindly loading G-Code onto your printer and printing is just asking for trouble

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I took one look at the surface area of the heater block of the mosquito and how much air would be flowing past it with cooling turned on, and thought that this could spell trouble, hence why I'm researching possibly making a mica shield and in all honesty waiting a bit longer before I buy a mosquito. Currently I can't get everything I want for the mosquito in the UK, I can get a mosquito, but not a separate heatbreak nor mounting kit.

Hopefully soon someone will stock all the items.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

I took one look at the surface area of the heater block of the mosquito and how much air would be flowing past it

Yes, it is much larger proportion of the heater cartridge in contact with a thin surround rather than actually in the mass of the heat block. Basically the heater cartridge is in the periphery of the heat block rather than fully surrounded by heat conductive portions of the block. I am increasingly less surprised by its apparent low calorie flow capacity. The E3D heater cartridges is also a very loose fit. Perhaps the Slice 50 watt is tighter fit and 50 watts makes up the short fall.

Slice did a great job designing the heat break and anti-rotation portions, but efficient thermal coupling of the heater cartridge and resistance to parts cooling airflow are better in the E3d.

BTW, it seems you can't post a less than glowing review of the Mosquito at Printed Solid. 

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

What do you think a cut down mica microwave guide cover would do somehow held by the cooling nozzle with a hole for the extruder nozzle to pass through?, this should keep the air flow away from the heater block, may help in overall cooling and is cheap! 😀 

Could be a new thing if it works!.

If it insulates well enough, the cooling nozzle might be able to be extended under the mica.

Going to order some now and try it with the E3d setup as that is all I have at the moment. As well as see just how molten plastic sticks or does not stick to it.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Ever played with mica? It's not very strong. Plus I'm no longer sure it is a "safe" material to have in the house - ala asbestos and co.

I do agree, insulating the Mosquito should help. I'm just very disappointed it needs help. I expected it to be the hot end of hot ends. It's not.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

It's safe. They even use it in makeup (Could explain a lot of SWMBO behaviour 😊 😜 )

Mica can offer the same kinds of solutions as asbestos, but with the crucial difference that mica is safe and non-hazardous to humans. Whether used in microporous materials, or as part of other composites,mica provides insulation for cables, pipes and tubes, and for lift doors and fire doors in buildings.

First test is going to be using the Fluke IR gun and see how insulating a piece is. I know it can be brittle, but I don't plan on the mica hitting anything, Not sure about the insulation properties as it has a k value of 0.71, then I will have to modify the OMEGA fan nozzle to hold a piece of mica and see how it prints. I will also test how much PETG PLA Polycarbonate stick to it, I believe it should be fairly non stick since mica is also used as a release agent in rubber moulding, but not sure how well it will work with molten polymers used in FDM, if at all.

The general plan is to try to keep cooling air flow away from the hot end, which I believe a mica sheet would work well as it is temperature resistant to around 900 Deg C, and is very light so should not affect the printer movements.

Then when I finally get a mosquito, try it with that.

And 

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

Well the mica sheet does nothing to block heat, but is non stick, but not in an ideal way. It sticks but comes off nice and easily when cold with a thin layer of mica stuck to it, a sort of barely visible layer (I used black PETG so any pickup from the creamy white mica would be visible).

I used an old cast iron pan heated to 230 deg C into which I put the mica, setting the emmisivity to mica 0.75 and got the same temperature as the black matt cast iron surface at an emissivity of 1.0. There was no smoke or damage to the mica sheet.

Extruding PETG onto the sheet held in free air up to the nozzle resulted in very slight adhesion (More to do with gripping of the texture on the mica) but resulted in very easy removal with no trace of mica on the filament / blob.

Putting the mica sheet onto the cast iran at 230 Deg C and doing the same, resulted in slight adhesion of the mica to the contact surface of the PETG filament /blob but removal as easy as before.

So in conclusion, maybe not ideal, but probably better than nothing which is what there is now.  It should help to shield the heater block against air currents from the part cooling and it is highly temperature resistant, lightweight and easy to cut with a knife, but you will still get radiated heat and if filament does stick to it, it will eventually wear away, but is very cheap.

This mod if anyone want's to try it, will require some sort of holder for the mica (Modified part cooling nozzle), the mica cut to fit with a hole for the extruder nozzle to poke through.

This is what I am on about, and can be found very cheaply.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TOOGOO-Microwave-Repairing-Plates-Sheets/dp/B00FFYML1W/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp?keywords=mica+cover&pd_rd_i=B00FFYML1W&pd_rd_r=6d9440e1-f32d-4aed-ad9d-5fa0f6336f46&pd_rd_w=MeiXQ&pd_rd_wg=tCXMb&pf_rd_p=7dc56c0d-8a5f-4d97-9143-7233b106859a&pf_rd_r=40S3XYESVBR606SGDAS0&qid=1560943295&s=appliances

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

If you are here in North America, you can get Mica from McMaster-Carr. Even if you aren't in North America (or don't otherwise order from McMaster-Carr) you can check their product page (link above) for mica to see what the properties are that engineers usually care about. For temperature, the lowest maximum specification is 930°F (499°C) so I don't see any thermal issues in the hobby FFF printer space with the current state of art.

While mica has temperature resistance properties, it isn't well known for temperature insulation. It does, however, have excellent electrical insulation properties and is often used for heat-sink electrical insulation, especially on TO-220 style packages that have an electrically active heat-sink mounting tab.

RE: MK3S Mosquito integration

It is by nature also a very crumbly mineral. I'd have concerns about flecks of it falling into the print/on the printer. Mica dust on your heatsink definitely won't do anything for its cooling ability... 🙂