Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Hi Tiago,
on AliExpress I found a seller who can offer me 10mm long red springs with OD 6mm and ID 3mm - I guess he could offer me other lengths maybe too.
So I would like to know: based on your success with this method: What is the ideal length if you could choose freely? Is it 10mm? Compressing them by 50% to get down to 5mm seems a bit brutal:-) Also I thought to maybe add washers to not scratch up the bed and the frame, so those would add to the height.
What is your opinion? Best regards,
Stahlfabrik
Hello,
10mm is already better than 15mm in terms of Z loss, so you can go with them, i think they will not offer much lower than that or odd sizes. They can be cut at the size you want, but finish spring is always better. Maybe the perfect size is 7 to 8mm.
Washers are not required with that springs, they are flat and will not scrath the bed. They also will not rotate on frame / bed.
I have buy these to test: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Titan-Extruder-Strong-Spring-For-3D-Printer-Parts-Extruder/32811213869.html
When they come i will write about them.
...
I am wondering if it could not be better to use a fixed point in the center, without spring. Did you try that?
is there any mileage in keeping a spacer in the middle and using springs on the other 8 points? the rigid point in the middle could reduce the chances of bed sway, with large printers!
regards Joan
Yes, i think about that before buy or install the springs, my study conclusion is NO!.
While it can serve as guide for Z and tightness that would cause what we hate, bed warp... That center point fixed will cause center to deform with heat and cold, will expand and contract, after many uses bed will be concave at center, because all other points are free but center is fixed, making a deformation on center point, so don't do it! One objective from this mod is avoid bed deformation over time and fix warp beds, doing so will override one of the purpose of this mod.
But you can use it as reference, do all your ajustments and in end remove that middle spacer or release the screw a bit! bed will do just fine with 8 points instead of 9, in fact almost all printers use only 4 points, so you are ok with 8.
Still my advice is don't use it and put spring every point. Use caliper to measure old height and set as same with springs
I found a bit shorter springs here :
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3D-printer-accessories-pressure-spring-hot-extruder-hot-bed-MK2B-MK3-MK2A-and-other-support-special/32849401447.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.eaf94c4dl5kwQX
They must be tested, no information are provided such like force and deformation, so the best bet is buy them and test, Still second link looks not usable, the space in spirals indicate that is weak spring and will deform.
Also keep in mind that cheap springs mean some things: Deformation, scrap metal, low resistance
This is hard to answer, Tiago should have a better idea than me. This need some testing to see if they are going to work or not. I think they need to be quite strong, to avoid movements of the bed during high speed movements with an heavy/tall printed part. But they should not scratch the heated bed nor weaken the threads in the Y carriage aluminum plate (aluminum thread can be weaken quite easily)
Don't worry, bed will not move, the 9 points and the screws will not allow that, even on tall objects. Try to compress a spring against a digital scaler and measure the compression mm, that give you the force it hold given that compressed mm, now multiply that by 9 subtract the bed weight and you have the total object kg it will support without move down.
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
I received the red springs, but since the black springs are shorter, I'll wait to receive them as well before deciding which type to use.
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
I received the red springs, but since the black springs are shorter, I'll wait to receive them as well before deciding which type to use.
Any update yet?
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
I received the red springs, but since the black springs are shorter, I'll wait to receive them as well before deciding which type to use.
Any update yet?
Uh, no, this stuff is coming from China. Maybe in a month the black springs will arrive.
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Update
The Titan Extruder springs make a good/better solution to this
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Titan-Extruder-Strong-Spring-For-3D-Printer-Parts-Extruder/32811213869.html
I got mine today, they are softer than red springs, still strong!, but they are compared to the yellow. They are also flat springs. It start to compress at 1KG force, when reach 2KG (10mm tall) you will need about 5KG or more the bend a little more, so they also fit as replacement to the 15mm red spring.
They have 12.42mm uncompressed, compared to 15.56mm from the original red spring. You need to compress down to 10mm, you need very force if want to compress less than the 10mm so they make a good candidate to spare 5mm Z
Screw to use: 18mm
Screw all soft -> Screw all util you notice some force, use two fingers with the screwdriver -> Repeat last util all equal -> Test with mesh plugin
My Z is now: 198mm (Volcano+springs), before was 190mm
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Update
The Titan Extruder springs make a good/better solution to this
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Titan-Extruder-Strong-Spring-For-3D-Printer-Parts-Extruder/32811213869.html
I got mine today, they are softer than red springs, still strong!, but they are compared to the yellow. They are also flat springs. It start to compress at 1KG force, when reach 2KG (10mm tall) you will need about 5KG or more the bend a little more, so they also fit as replacement to the 15mm red spring.
They have 12.42mm uncompressed, compared to 15.56mm from the original red spring. You need to compress down to 10mm, you need very force if want to compress less than the 10mm so they make a good candidate to spare 5mm Z
Screw to use: 18mm
Screw all soft -> Screw all util you notice some force, use two fingers with the screwdriver -> Repeat last util all equal -> Test with mesh plugin
My Z is now: 198mm (Volcano+springs), before was 190mm
Do you have a bottom line yet on which springs are the best?
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Do you have a bottom line yet on which springs are the best?
So far this titan extruder springs are the best fit for plug and play. They are strong and can hold more than 20KG on bed depending on tension you put.
I will stop searching for other solutions since this fulfill the mod, the perfect spring would be 7mm to 8mm but where to find?
So there are two best solutions:
1) buy these
2) Buy 100mm red spring and cut that into 7mm or 8mm +/- equal springs
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
My springs have arrived today. I left the one spacer in the middle and only replace the 8 point around.
https://youprintin3d.de/hardware/federn/849/druckfeder-4-4x-6-3x-0-9-9-3mm-lang.html
The level is fantastic! Holy macaroni! - Only 0,006mm variance! Absolute rediculous.
I hope the screws won't loose over time, but for now it is ok and i got no problems any more. My parts got a nice level bottomface and this is important to me.
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
My springs have arrived today. I left the one spacer in the middle and only replace the 8 point around.
https://youprintin3d.de/hardware/federn/849/druckfeder-4-4x-6-3x-0-9-9-3mm-lang.html
The level is fantastic! Holy macaroni! - Only 0,006mm variance! Absolute rediculous.
I hope the screws won't loose over time, but for now it is ok and i got no problems any more. My parts got a nice level bottomface and this is important to me.
IMG_20180908_175141949.jpg
2018-09-08 17_46_13-Window.jpg
How strong are that springs if you try compress with two fingers?
they look a bit deformed with the bed screws
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
My springs have arrived today. I left the one spacer in the middle and only replace the 8 point around.
https://youprintin3d.de/hardware/federn/849/druckfeder-4-4x-6-3x-0-9-9-3mm-lang.html
The level is fantastic! Holy macaroni! - Only 0,006mm variance! Absolute rediculous.
I hope the screws won't loose over time, but for now it is ok and i got no problems any more. My parts got a nice level bottomface and this is important to me.
IMG_20180908_175141949.jpg
2018-09-08 17_46_13-Window.jpg
How strong are that springs if you try compress with two fingers?
they look a bit deformed with the bed screws
i can't compress it complete with only two fingers. They are realy strong
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
My springs have arrived today. I left the one spacer in the middle and only replace the 8 point around.
https://youprintin3d.de/hardware/federn/849/druckfeder-4-4x-6-3x-0-9-9-3mm-lang.html
The level is fantastic! Holy macaroni! - Only 0,006mm variance! Absolute rediculous.
I hope the screws won't loose over time, but for now it is ok and i got no problems any more. My parts got a nice level bottomface and this is important to me.
IMG_20180908_175141949.jpg
2018-09-08 17_46_13-Window.jpg
How strong are that springs if you try compress with two fingers?
they look a bit deformed with the bed screws
i can't compress it complete with only two fingers. They are realy strong
Do you have a digital scale? So you can try compress against the scale and see the weight when it start to compress?
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
How strong are that springs if you try compress with two fingers?
they look a bit deformed with the bed screws
i can't compress it complete with only two fingers. They are realy strong
Do you have a digital scale? So you can try compress against the scale and see the weight when it start to compress?
no.
click on my link. everything is there
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
This is just insane! I spend the whole day yesterday accomplishing the same result with washers... Grinding them, putting em in while fighting the magnets... measuring with bed leveler and start the whole circus again. At the end I got to .009 and an excellent 0.2mm first layer height; but why-oh-why did I not find this topic ONE day earlier 🙁
You sir, tiago.c are a genius!! Thank you.
Needless to say that I will order my springs still today 😀
PS. Please make sure that you know in bed leveler which corner is which; for the first couple of tries I was adjusting the wrong points...
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
This is just insane! I spend the whole day yesterday accomplishing the same result with washers... Grinding them, putting em in while fighting the magnets... measuring with bed leveler and start the whole circus again. At the end I got to .009 and an excellent 0.2mm first layer height; but why-oh-why did I not find this topic ONE day earlier 🙁
You sir, tiago.c are a genius!! Thank you.
Needless to say that I will order my springs still today 😀
PS. Please make sure that you know in bed leveler which corner is which; for the first couple of tries I was adjusting the wrong points...
I belive, that is a big pain.
Order the small ones.
If you use prusa mesh plugin theres no way to go wrong with orientation
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Looks like C0180-029-0310M could be an ideal spring:
Wire in mm: 0.74
Outer dia: 4.57
Length unloaded: 7.87
Length loaded: 5.56
P1 (force in Newton) 28.6
P/f (in N/mm) 12.43
Steel
The original height of the bed is about 5.8 mm from the Y-frame.
I will try to get my hands on these. Not from China, so hopefully soon 🙂
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
I´ve took the values of OPK with a tolerance of 20% to this site:
https://www.federnshop.com/en/products/compression_springs.html
and these 2 springs are my favorites so far:
no. 1: https://www.federnshop.com/en/products/compression_springs/d-117a.html
no. 2: https://www.federnshop.com/en/products/compression_springs/d-138.html
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Hello...jus tinstalled the springs... i have now a variance of 0.012.. and i am still getting a more squished filament on the right than on the left.... on the left is like 0.1 higher... it sjust deposing the filament... on the right and middle it is just perfect... i have z live of -0.640.... i do not want to used the bed correction...:(...any ideas.... carriage and bed are new...
got replaced for this reason...
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
Hello...jus tinstalled the springs... i have now a variance of 0.012.. and i am still getting a more squished filament on the right than on the left.... on the left is like 0.1 higher... it sjust deposing the filament... on the right and middle it is just perfect... i have z live of -0.640.... i do not want to used the bed correction...:(...any ideas.... carriage and bed are new...
got replaced for this reason...
Well i recommend do a XYZ cal. after do the mod, that will impact the mesh, after set live Z again check variance again.
Post your results after you did this.
Also dont forget to start all your prints at PINDA 35ºc or tune your pinda temp cal. manually
What was your variance before?
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
So... here are the results with the stock spacers i was getting a variance of 0,3 -0,4
now after installing the springs:
1) after installing the mod and doing XYZ.. iam getting 0.08
2) after doing a mesh bed level when the pinda is @35 and bed @60 i am getting 0.09
3) here a re the pictures of the test result... you can clearly see that the Left square is not squished..
i am starting to loose hope...
Re: Fix bed variance / warp using flat springs
So... here are the results with the stock spacers i was getting a variance of 0,3 -0,4
now after installing the springs:
1) after installing the mod and doing XYZ.. iam getting 0.08
2) after doing a mesh bed level when the pinda is @35 and bed @60 i am getting 0.09
3) here a re the pictures of the test result... you can clearly see that the Left square is not squished..
i am starting to loose hope...
Stock spacers variance wasn't that bad.
Your problem might be other thing.
Can you print a single layer square cathing same area as that test?
You use all stock parts on MK3?
Your pinda tip is horizontal with bed or have a angle?