Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?  

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Yes, you are absolutely going to die if you print ABS. You'll also die if you don't. I hope that's not a surprise.

Think of it as having a smoker in the house. No one print is likely to kill you. Over time, the more you expose yourself, the greater the likelihood of adverse effects. There have been several studies of 3D printing fumes and ABS in particular, so search and do some research on the topic and decide how comfortable you are exposing your household to the fumes. If you're eating fatty foods, rolling coal in your living room and think making asbestos great again is a good idea, ABS fumes may be the least of your worries.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

3) Last but not least is my totally whacky idea of buying a hydroponics grow kit like this:

https://www.amazon.com/TopoLite-Complete-Hydroponic-Growing-Multiple/dp/B0732LZDBT/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1534711713&sr=8-3&keywords=topolite+grow+tent+room+kit&dpID=61y2FrPcRHL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I could set this up a few different ways, but my main primary idea would be to have it in my closet with the exhaust tube running down the hallway into my bathroom. My bathroom is huge and is divided in two -- one area with the shower and tub, and then a second, much smaller area separated by a door with the toilet. This area is about the dimensions of a port-a-potty. I actually took the door off because I have no need to separate the toilet from the shower area, but if I did this I would make a circular cut out so I could run the exhaust duct through it and keep the door closed while it was printing. The exhaust fan for the bathroom is in here.

This method probably falls in the middle in terms of safety, the most expensive, and is VERY inconvenient, but it would keep the printers in a safe temperature range.

Am I just overthinking this? Are these fumes not as big a deal as I'm making them out to be? Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

The description says "Carbon Layer Thickness: 1.5 inches", and it's anyone's guess as to whether that would be enough. Apparently 18 inches is someone's standard for how much is enough for single pass filtering, but good luck finding anything more than just a few inches unless you were to make your own.

Maybe if you set up your printer inside your bathroom (assuming you have more than one), then you'd have an instant solution? With your imagined solution, you wouldn't be able to use the bathroom during prints anyway.

Anyhow, it's the styrene in ABS that seems to raise the most concern, especially as compared to other filament plastics. However, my sinuses get irritated even with PLA and PETG, even though I can't really smell anything with PETG. Also, PETG has twice set off my smoke alarm, so it's clearly being emitted in nontrivial amounts during prints. Make of that what you will.

For info on how I'm approaching the problem, see: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles--f65/enclosure-w-filtration-for-printing-abs-indoors--t23850-s20.html

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Yes, you are absolutely going to die if you print ABS. You'll also die if you don't. I hope that's not a surprise.

Think of it as having a smoker in the house. No one print is likely to kill you. Over time, the more you expose yourself, the greater the likelihood of adverse effects. There have been several studies of 3D printing fumes and ABS in particular, so search and do some research on the topic and decide how comfortable you are exposing your household to the fumes. If you're eating fatty foods, rolling coal in your living room and think making asbestos great again is a good idea, ABS fumes may be the least of your worries.

I understand that I'm not just going to die over night. Did you read the post? I've done the basic research -- I'm looking for more specific information from people who specialize in these fields and may have a deeper understanding about the best and most practical ways to combat the problem.

Your post was the equivalent of, "Drugs are bad, mmmkay?", but thanks I guess?

3) Last but not least is my totally whacky idea of buying a hydroponics grow kit like this:

https://www.amazon.com/TopoLite-Complete-Hydroponic-Growing-Multiple/dp/B0732LZDBT/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1534711713&sr=8-3&keywords=topolite+grow+tent+room+kit&dpID=61y2FrPcRHL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

I could set this up a few different ways, but my main primary idea would be to have it in my closet with the exhaust tube running down the hallway into my bathroom. My bathroom is huge and is divided in two -- one area with the shower and tub, and then a second, much smaller area separated by a door with the toilet. This area is about the dimensions of a port-a-potty. I actually took the door off because I have no need to separate the toilet from the shower area, but if I did this I would make a circular cut out so I could run the exhaust duct through it and keep the door closed while it was printing. The exhaust fan for the bathroom is in here.

This method probably falls in the middle in terms of safety, the most expensive, and is VERY inconvenient, but it would keep the printers in a safe temperature range.

Am I just overthinking this? Are these fumes not as big a deal as I'm making them out to be? Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

The description says "Carbon Layer Thickness: 1.5 inches", and it's anyone's guess as to whether that would be enough. Apparently 18 inches is someone's standard for how much is enough for single pass filtering, but good luck finding anything more than just a few inches unless you were to make your own.

Maybe if you set up your printer inside your bathroom (assuming you have more than one), then you'd have an instant solution? With your imagined solution, you wouldn't be able to use the bathroom during prints anyway.

As I understand it even with a combination HEPA/Charcoal filter, the particulates are still too small to be captured. I didn't really expect to get any life saving help from the filter -- it's just something that happened to be in the kit. The main items I was after were the actual grow room, the duct fan, and tubing.

Your point about setting it up in the bathroom is valid for sure. I'm not sure the actual bathroom where the fan is would accommodate a printer, so I'd have to leave it in the main room. I'm not sure how great the venting would be without the printer expelling the air right near the bathroom exhaust. These are the kinds of questions I'm looking to answer though. How long the particulates and fumes are airborne after extrusion stops and a rough estimate of their ability to travel would be very useful information and would pretty much answer my questions entirely, but I'm not sure those answers exist. 🙁

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

You may be able to answer your questions with just a very small number of experiments using an air quality monitor. It may not give you metaphysical certitude, but I don't think you find that elsewhere either. As proven by the example of carbon monoxide: just because you can't smell it doesn't mean there isn't a possible danger. For that reason, I wouldn't rely purely on what I can smell or not as the primary measurement tool.

I'm presently in the midst of reviewing different air quality sensors in an attempt to pick the best one: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles--f65/enclosure-w-filtration-for-printing-abs-indoors--t23850-s20.html

If more people here were to consider the problem, and possible solutions, I think we'd arrive at better answers more quickly. I don't have unlimited time for researching this purely on my own. That said, this is the best article that I previously found so far regarding your OP question: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.est.5b04983

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

I'm not an expert, but when I did print a little ABS (that was in an introductory kit with my first printer) I don't remember seeing significant particulates. I may be totally wrong, but my opinion is that the problem is not particles but fumes, i.e. gases given off. Gases don't "settle out". No matter how many barriers you put between the printer and the rest of the house, if you don't vent the gases to the outside, or trap them chemically, they eventually will permeate the inside of the house. I could still smell the chemicals in my nose three days after doing that one little print, and my printer at the time was in the garage!

So to my mind (and remember I'm not an expert) - if I felt it an absolute necessity for me to print ABS, I would personally have the printer inside an enclosure and vented to the outside. You need the enclosure anyway to raise the air temperature high enough to prevent layer separation and warping while you are printing. If you absolutely can't vent to the outside, then activated charcoal would be the way to go; it's a sponge for noxious chemicals. But how much carbon, and how often do you replace it? I dunno.

I print exclusively PETG. I never heard of PETG setting off a smoke alarm; I wonder if that was some kind of coincidence. PETG has almost the mechanical properties of ABS, and it's way more resistant to temperature extremes than PLA. Nylon is extremely tough (it'll bend but not break), but it does give off particulates when printing, and it warps with changes in humidity (especially exposure to water).

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

I'm not an expert, but when I did print a little ABS (that was in an introductory kit with my first printer) I don't remember seeing significant particulates. I may be totally wrong, but my opinion is that the problem is not particles but fumes, i.e. gases given off. Gases don't "settle out". No matter how many barriers you put between the printer and the rest of the house, if you don't vent the gases to the outside, or trap them chemically, they eventually will permeate the inside of the house. I could still smell the chemicals in my nose three days after doing that one little print, and my printer at the time was in the garage!

So to my mind (and remember I'm not an expert) - if I felt it an absolute necessity for me to print ABS, I would personally have the printer inside an enclosure and vented to the outside. You need the enclosure anyway to raise the air temperature high enough to prevent layer separation and warping while you are printing. If you absolutely can't vent to the outside, then activated charcoal would be the way to go; it's a sponge for noxious chemicals. But how much carbon, and how often do you replace it? I dunno.

I print exclusively PETG. I never heard of PETG setting off a smoke alarm; I wonder if that was some kind of coincidence. PETG has almost the mechanical properties of ABS, and it's way more resistant to temperature extremes than PLA. Nylon is extremely tough (it'll bend but not break), but it does give off particulates when printing, and it warps with changes in humidity (especially exposure to water).

You wouldn't see ultra fine nano particles lol. All 3d printer filaments, even PLA and PETG, put out nano particles that could be potentially very bad for you. As I understand it the science is still out on just how bad it is, but I think it's agreed that it's not good for you. ABS also puts out chemicals that aren't good for you so it's double the poison.

I think, for lack of good information, I'm just going to avoid printing in ABS unless I absolutely have to. In the event that I have to I'll set up a printer in the garage inside a photo tent. The ONLY reason I want to print ABS is acetone polishing, but I guess I can do without it if it's going to kill me. I wish I had the time to go on a quest to find an answer with you, David. 🙁

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Thanks, David.f42 for the link to that article.
It's unfortunate that they didn't include PETG in their study. But "T-Glase" is made (well, sold by) Taulman3D, and Mr. Taulman told me in response to an inquiry that T-Glase is PETT. Whether that means that the chemical emission characteristics of PETT resemble those of PETG I don't know, but in the article it was clear that T-Glase was among the better performers for low emissions of UFP's and very significantly lower than all but one of the other filaments tested for emissions of Volatile Organic Carbon.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

I should have said nylon gives off VISIBLE particulates - which of course are totally different from "ultra fine particulates". I have no way of knowing about the emission of UFP's other than the article David referenced.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

I'm not an expert, but when I did print a little ABS (that was in an introductory kit with my first printer) I don't remember seeing significant particulates.

Tiago.c observed a sharp increase in measured particulates when he printed ABS: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles--f65/my-handmade-enclosure-for-prusa-t23384-s10.html

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

My biggest concern is the toxic fumes, obviously. I've currently got a small 5'x5' closet I've got my various printers set up in. It's in my room, but is on the complete opposite side of my fairly large room in a small hallway that connects to my master bathroom. It's separated by a door. I don't know much of anything about how these fumes/particulates behave -- does anyone know how far away you should have a printer doing ABS? Do people just print inside their enclosures and then wait awhile for things to "settle down" before opening the enclosure?

I've got 3 options as I see it.

1) Build a lack table style enclosure and put it in my walk in closet. This would have two "barriers" so to speak -- the enclosure itself, and then the fact that it's tucked inside my closet. This would look the best, be the most convenient, but also seems like the most dangerous route.

....

Am I just overthinking this? Are these fumes not as big a deal as I'm making them out to be? Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.

I think you may be overthinking this, but I'm not going to discourage you if you want to take precautions.

Here's another suggestion: put a enclosure in your closet, and make a hole in one of the sides big enough to fit the end of a clothes dryer vent tube. Run the tube across the room to the window, and put a small fan in there to blow air out of the house.

You don't need very much airflow, just enough to ensure that when the enclosure is closed and the fan is on, air in the enclosure moves through the vent and out of the house rather than the other way.

But it's probably more important to make sure you don't print the ABS so hot it starts to scorch. ABS is a little more forgiving of the print temperature than PLA or PETG, so it can be tempting to print hot for faster printing and better layer adhesion. But if you do that you also increase the odds of overheating the plastic.

Also, be careful to not burn dinner when cooking on the stove or in the oven, and you might want to avoid grilling. Those will give you a much bigger dose of particulates much faster than 3D printing with ABS. Not trying to minimize anything, just put it in context with all the other things we do that might not be so good for us.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

ABS fumes can cause problematic breath problems if you breath that thing all the days.
When i first printed ABS (From Prusa store) i instantly fell bad, and even the printer is on a big room when i enter the door of the house far from printer i instant notice the small and feel like toxic.
Now i print alot of ABS and i had take care of it with my enclosure.

You need a dedicated ventilation or proper filtering, no other thing will work...
If you live in a isolated area, like rural area or you have a garden you can put printer outside, but that way you need have an enclosure to prevent air drafs

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Yes, you are absolutely going to die if you print ABS. You'll also die if you don't. I hope that's not a surprise.

Think of it as having a smoker in the house. No one print is likely to kill you. Over time, the more you expose yourself, the greater the likelihood of adverse effects. There have been several studies of 3D printing fumes and ABS in particular, so search and do some research on the topic and decide how comfortable you are exposing your household to the fumes. If you're eating fatty foods, rolling coal in your living room and think making asbestos great again is a good idea, ABS fumes may be the least of your worries.

I understand that I'm not just going to die over night. Did you read the post? I've done the basic research -- I'm looking for more specific information from people who specialize in these fields and may have a deeper understanding about the best and most practical ways to combat the problem.

Your post was the equivalent of, "Drugs are bad, mmmkay?", but thanks I guess?

If bobstro hadn't said it, I think I would have. From the subject line, 2 things seem apparent:
1. It appears you wanted to elicit a response.
2. You obviously have a sense of humor or you would've phrased that subject a bit differently, and you wouldn't have retorted with a South Park comeback.

So you got a humorous response to a humorous question, and you're indignant? Isn't that a bit like trolling?

Personally, with all the negatives I've read/watched about it, and all the newer filament alternatives, I can't imagine why anyone would want to print ABS anymore, but that's me. (Yes, I read about your wanting to finish the parts with acetone--that technique never impressed me either, but again, that's me. I read the entire thread.)

I think (from the suggestions already made) that venting to the outside sounds like the best option (though part of me asks why make the pollutants everyone else's problem too?) There are a couple of options, depending on how your house is laid out/built. If your walk-in has a window, I think you're halfway there, though if it were me, I'd want to make sure those fumes don't just come right back in the window. An alternative depends on how that bathroom is built. Bathrooms have stacks within the walls that vent to the outside. Yes, it means punching a hole in a wall someplace, but doing that neatly (and repairing at some later date) would still be less expensive than some alternatives.

Another thought just occurred to me that hasn't been suggested yet. (and I defer to those who know more about it than I) What about running the air through water? That would definitely trap any particulates; I don't know about fumage. I also don't know about the fitness of any aquarium-type filters for getting rid of the fumes, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if it sticks...

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Another thought just occurred to me that hasn't been suggested yet. (and I defer to those who know more about it than I) What about running the air through water? That would definitely trap any particulates; I don't know about fumage. I also don't know about the fitness of any aquarium-type filters for getting rid of the fumes, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see if it sticks...

For people considering this: the Rainbow System vacuum cleaners use this system.
http://rainbowsystem.com/products/rainbow-system/

Strangely though, they still have a hepa filter on the exhaust (point 2 in the above link). They write "This unique water filtration system captures typical household dirt, while remaining microscopic particles are caught by our HEPA Neutralizer Filtration System. This two-stage filtration combination removes nearly 100% of dirt and contaminants from your home."

So maybe it is not enough? (no expert here)

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

From the link, I can't tell exactly how it works. What I was thinking of would be similar to a... water pipe (It was.... "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...." (a.k.a. the '70s) 🙄

Airborne particles might still make it through if trapped in large air bubbles. This is where an inline (but underwater) filter would come in.

The link talks about removing odors, but not specifically chemical fumes. (No expert here either. 😉 )

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

ABS fumes can cause problematic breath problems if you breath that thing all the days.
When i first printed ABS (From Prusa store) i instantly fell bad, and even the printer is on a big room when i enter the door of the house far from printer i instant notice the small and feel like toxic.
Now i print alot of ABS and i had take care of it with my enclosure.

You need a dedicated ventilation or proper filtering, no other thing will work...
If you live in a isolated area, like rural area or you have a garden you can put printer outside, but that way you need have an enclosure to prevent air drafs

Generalization is bad. Your experience is not the same as mine. I have printed tons of ABS in a small 1 bedroom apartment with no problems to me or my health. I actually fear the fecal coliforms in a restroom more than the particulates from ABS.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

Generalization is bad. Your experience is not the same as mine. I have printed tons of ABS in a small 1 bedroom apartment with no problems to me or my health. I actually fear the fecal coliforms in a restroom more than the particulates from ABS.

Did you mean, Generalization is bad, mkay? (Oh, no... Now the OP has me thinking in South Parkish!) 😯 🙄

IMO, with ABS, it's not the particulates so much as the chemical fumes (styrene). YMMV.

To each his/her/their own phobias. 😀

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

[...] Generalization is bad. Your experience is not the same as mine. I have printed tons of ABS in a small 1 bedroom apartment with no problems to me or my health. I actually fear the fecal coliforms in a restroom more than the particulates from ABS.
Well... I wouldn't say bad. More "you can't draw conclusions from isolated cases" perhaps. My father-in-law smoked like a chimney into his 70s. He's now nearly 90 and driving everyone nuts. I don't think that means the data indicating smoking is potentially dangerous should be ignored. There's enough science and data out there to be pretty comfortable saying smoking is bad, and the evidence seems to be stacking up similarly for styrene and possibly nano-particulates.

The rest of this post is a general response, not really responding to richard...

I'm not sure why the OP took offense to my comment. Much of the science on the nano-particulates is still out, just like it was with smoking in the last several decades. "We can't prove it 100%" but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence indicating it's sure not good for ya! Styrene is a known baddie. Particulates might be. I've seen some basic research that indicates that ABS puts out many times the amount of particulates as PLA or PETG. IIRC, PLA rated a 5 on the scale, PETG a 1. ABS was 12 or higher. The conclusion was that "sticky" materials like PETG let less out. It wasn't overly scientific, but good data is hard to come by. Sadly, I didn't save the link.

My point being that thinking of it as having a smoker in the house is probably as precise as we're going to get. You'll never link a single print to a case of cancer. It's all about exposure. You might be able to print ABS next to your infant's crib for years with no consequences... or you might not. Judge what you're comfortable with. Be prepared to think about the consequences for the rest of your life.

Some people smoke next to an open window. Others smoke only outside. I won't even try to draw a parallel with vaping. In reality though, it's a question of what you're (collectively, not just richard) comfortable with. There is currently no hard data saying how to print with complete safety. If your (collective) solution doesn't really filter the particles or styrene, don't fool yourself! The effects may take decades to present, or only present on individuals who weren't in the room. We just don't know all the answers. So yeah "styrene is bad. Particulates aren't good for ya, m'kay" is about as good as you're going to get. Unless a home-brew solution significantly reduces those factors, it's probably not worth the effort. Buying the best carbon filter in the world won't help unless it's part of an overall system that ensures all contaminated air is drawn through it. An in-room carbon filter helps a little, but doesn't clear up everything. A quality filter will cost more than the printer, and building your own isn't a guarantee without testing and may not be much cheaper. If you're big-time worried, then be prepared for big-time expense.

It's the same problem that draws some people to Volvos and others to motorcycles.

Re: Enclosure questions -- am I going to die if I print ABS?

I get the impression that not everyone here is aware that Tiago.c has already posted a working solution: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/user-mods-octoprint-enclosures-nozzles--f65/my-handmade-enclosure-for-prusa-t23384.html

There's a lot that I like about it. He's also the only one that I know of on this forum to have done any measurements of the related total VOC's and airborn particulates, so that's interesting as well. What I like about his measurements is that they provide at least some objective proof that his solution actually works.