vertical lines on y  

Re: vertical lines on y

I have exactly the same effect.

Re: vertical lines on y

Prusa Support gave ma an idea to change the x and y motors.
if the Problem switch to x, is the problem definitely the motor.
will test it today and give feedback

Re: vertical lines on y

so here is my feedback: changing motor makes no difference, i also have vertical lines on Y with the X motor... 😡

Re: vertical lines on y

If I understand correctly, the 'vertical lines on the y-axis' have 'ridges and grooves' in the X direction. To me, this indicates that the x-axis is modulating. What am I missing?
DJ

Re: vertical lines on y

I have the same Problem, on the X axis. On two MK3 machines.

The X motor vibrates slightly, causing ripples to appear on the Y surface.
I've tried adding motor dampeners, it had only the effect of quieting the machines.

The X motor also has a different modulation than the Y motor in the firmware, i tried aligning the values but nothing happened as well.

You can try it out, put a finger on the X and on the Y motor.
X motor vibrates a lot more than Y, causing the ripples.

Re: vertical lines on y

@devilhunter
my X motor is not moving when y is printing for this cube. so it has to be a y problem.

i was yesterday about 3 hours in chat with prusa about my problem but the best solution they give me was "i have to look how i can print my parts faster"! (no hate, i am sure they have no solution for my problem)
the background was the lines are gone wenn i print outline with higher speed like 80mm/s, but this is no solution for me. i often have smal parts to print with slow speed...

Now i have everything changed for testing on hardware side, only the motherboard is left.
and now i am wating for a email from the prusa team, whats next.

Re: vertical lines on y

I am new to 3d printing , and only got a matter of 20 hours of prints behind me, so still dialing in what I can optimise to get the best print quality possible.

I too have seen this artefact, lighting can mitigate or exasperate ( 😉 ) how bad it looks. In my case it isn't as bad as yours looks. however it feels like something that ought to be able to be "dialed out".

It set me thinking :
My problem, seems uniform in x and y. I'm still a newbie, so hence using slic3r, with largely standard settings. There's a lot to learn in terms of optimisation prints, sequences to dial in as much quality as possible alright -albeit i'm finding with each thing once understood, not that difficult. As Chris W. pointed out to me some days back, on the facebook prusa forum every motor will resonate, its just about at what speed/ frequency. Having said that: it strikes me better balanced motors should resonate less-does anyone know of mechanical ways of mitigating this problem, before optimising speed? I presume it means either different motors, or stiffening whatever is quivering : to reduce the amplitude of the resultant motion- I'm sure people out there have already thought about this... id happily strap on a mod if it made it go away. On that forum people someone suggested doing speed optimisation test prints, but that felt like a real cludge to me. It feels to me like the machine "just shouldn't do it".

If better motors that "quiver" less are not available, or the system they are bolted to for a given amount of quiver-force-excitation results in too much movement, ie. the system is not stiff enough, and its not clear where things need stiffening : then there may be a software solution :

Every system has resonant frequencies of course. This is just physics. But it is possible to get round this by continuously changing the speed from below an otherwise static target speed to just over the previously static target speed, to just under and so on, so a particular speed is never stopped at, but speed continuously varies. This is done with nuclear centrifuges, and clever CNC mills, / lathes.
As an example : , i.e.. superimposing a sign wave of shallow amplitude on the static speed, to create a sinusoidal speed, averaging the set speed.
If this were done in firmware, for x, y z speed: lots of resonant effects would go away, and vertical banding in prints would disappear. This is not to ameliorate moire : this is something else.

I've posted this as a feature request on github.

However, this feels like there should be a hardware solution. Anybody got any suggestions?

Re: vertical lines on y

However, this feels like there should be a hardware solution. Anybody got any suggestions?

Yes, there are some.

http://prusaowners.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_to_make_prints_better_on_the_mk3#Replacement_feet

This is a software problem, and will get exaggerated/amplified by the various little faults that the hardware has or how the user build the machine.

See same topic here
https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/assembly-and-first-prints-troubleshooting-f62/vertical-lines-in-print-objects-t23501.html

Also i think this won't get fixed, since the MK3 prints well enough to keep up with the competitors, and the 8bit Atmega has no more CPU power to spare to fix the extrusion roblems the MK3 has. (oscillating patterns, weave basket patterns, random fat layers aka inconsistent extrusion)

Re: vertical lines on y

so my printer is now about 2 weeks at prusa for repair and i got now this email

"Dear Thomas,
I finally have some feedback from our service team.
First issue is there was some blue not original PTFE tube mounted which was causing problems. Then we found out there was different heat break and together with not original and wrongly mounted nozzle printer couldnt print properly. Please see pictures arrached.

Reparation of your printer will be for 120 EUR + shipping back to you.
I will prepare the invoice later.
Would you like us ship it back to you or will oyu arrange your own shipping?
Kind regards"

pictures are attached here.

Is this really the great PRUSA support?
the blue PTFE is a capricorn!
the heatbreak is a TITAN heatbreak from RS
the Nozzle is from Microswiss
all good and expensive parts and if these parts really causing my problem, the problem would be also on X and not only on Y

so now my only opinion is to pay for nothing? really great prusa really great

Re: vertical lines on y

[...] Is this really the great PRUSA support?
the blue PTFE is a capricorn!
the heatbreak is a TITAN heatbreak from RS
the Nozzle is from Microswiss
all good and expensive parts and if these parts really causing my problem, the problem would be also on X and not only on YThose are all good parts, but free warranty repair is usually against "defects in parts and workmanship" as delivered. If you replaced all those parts, you most likely voided your warranty no matter how skillful your work or quality of parts used.

Did you mention all these mods in your original discussions and before shipping the unit to Prusa? If you mentioned it, you can definitely make a case for not being charged for labor. If you neglected to mention these mods, you may be out of luck. Their position is likely that you misrepresented the problem. I sympathize, but I can understand their position too. They can't have users making any number of changes to the printer, then ship it back for free consulting on repairs.

The obvious question is whether you were experiencing these problems before making these modifications? If you swapped back in the original parts, did it still behave the same way? I would've tried that before shipping it out!

I think I used the Simplify 3D profile you posted on Facebook. Good stuff.

Good luck with it. I hope you get things worked out.

Re: vertical lines on y

"Dear Thomas,
I finally have some feedback from our service team.
First issue is there was some blue not original PTFE tube mounted which was causing problems. Then we found out there was different heat break and together with not original and wrongly mounted nozzle printer couldnt print properly. Please see pictures arrached...."

Is this really the great PRUSA support?
the blue PTFE is a capricorn!
the heatbreak is a TITAN heatbreak from RS
the Nozzle is from Microswiss
all good and expensive parts and if these parts really causing my problem, the problem would be also on X and not only on Y

so now my only opinion is to pay for nothing? really great prusa really great

You replaced the heat break, nozzle, and PTFE tube, with non-stock parts and the printer stopped working.

And you're complaining because Prusa won't fix it for free?

If you bought a new car and replaced the transmission with one from some other car, would you expect the car manufacturer to fix it for free?

It sounds like Prusa is only charging you for labor, not the cost of new OEM parts. I'd say that's pretty good treatment.

Re: vertical lines on y

Hey Guys, please I am no new user of 3d printers.
i had replaced the parts from beginning and the problem came later.
i had also testet to replace this parts for my own, but the error was still there.
my own mistake was to not told purse about my parts, I thought purse knows about good upgrades.

but I wonder that they did not also change my misumi bearings, my new rods, and gates gt3 belts, this parts I have also replaced for better ones...
and yes, I have all tested to replace with other parts, see my first post.

and again, it could net be se issue of my problem, if its so, I had the same ringing on BOTH axes!
they only say it to let me pay for it. and what I again not understand, they did not ask me to replace this or told me cost BEVOR the repair.
when I bring my car for repair, the told how much repair would cost and I can say yes or no...

my last status is, I have asked prusa to send me pictures after replace my parts to see if the problem is gone, if its really gone, I will pay for it, then it was my fault. but I want to see it bevor I pay it.

Re: vertical lines on y

Hey Guys, please I am no new user of 3d printers.Got that. As I said, I enjoyed trying out your S3D profile.
[...] my last status is, I have asked prusa to send me pictures after replace my parts to see if the problem is gone, if its really gone, I will pay for it, then it was my fault. but I want to see it bevor I pay it.I didn't realize they actually repaired (or at least did repair work) on the printer. I'm surprised. Did you authorize them to do work ahead of time?

Hopefully it's all sorted out.

Re: vertical lines on y

this is getting really anoying, again 2! Days with no answer on my email.
Support Chat could also not help, they say i have to send a email.

really great service, i hope josef is reading this sometime...

Re: vertical lines on y

so after 4 weeks i get back my printer from prusa and they say it is fixed.
but i have to say NO. the changed really a lot parts (including my own) but the printed part looks like bevore....
on the left (silver) is my testprint bevor i send it to prusa, right (black) is my testprint after "fixing"

i also have now crazy noize like elektric bzzzz when y is moving, still have to search for it!

now i have send prusa again a email, this is a really annoying story....

Re: vertical lines on y

again 5 days without any answer from prusa support! i really hope Josef read this sometimes...

here is a picture of my latest print, again stock sclicer settings for abs (PM Filament)

Re: vertical lines on y

man this is really a horrible story with prusa customer service. its now about 3! Months that i get in contact with prusa and nothing happend.
i really stock with my problem. I try to get a other contact person but they dont give me one. i still have to contact Lukas per email and he ignores me...

the last thing he say was

"This printing technology will not provide better results. I am sorry about that.
Kind regards

—
Lukáš Vacek
Customer Support"

i have 4 other FDM printers wich all prints not in this bad quality with this waves...

This is a really great service Josef!

Re: vertical lines on y

Dear schichtenmacher, dear all,

I am also experiencing this problem. However, as I am printing mostly technical parts, it is / was not so important for me. I did some early investigations on this problem some month ago, which I posted in this thread: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/how-do-i-print-this-printing-help--f63/poor-print-quality-t12438-s180.html . What I measured there: The period of the pattern visible (in my case) was 4 steps (4 times 0.16 mm). As it appears very regularly over all z-heights, it seems not to be related to vibrations.

I am not much into the details of the firmware, so perhaps there is somebody who can jump in and comment on the following question: I read about the TMC2130 drivers which are used for the stepper motors. These drivers are on the Einsy-board. The drivers can measure the load of a stepper, which is used for the homing of the axis. This measurement - as far as I understand - is done by the feature which is called "stallguard", more information here: https://www.trinamic.com/technology/adv-technologies/stallguard/

In this document, they mention that, to have less noise, the stall guard signal can be averaged (by setting the variabel SFILT, see page 3 of the document) . They filter / average over 4 full steps. So could it be possible that this filtering needs some microseconds in the TMC2130 drivers which leads to a slight "pause" every four steps, which then leads to more extruded material and thus the pattern we see?

So would be great to hear the thoughts of the experts knowing more about steppers and firmware than me...

Thank you very much, best
Christian

Re: vertical lines on y

Dear Christian,

thanks for your reply, but i am really near to give up with this printer.

i am now about 4 Months in contact with prusa and all i hear is
" Aside from that, there are no problems with the print."
"I would recommend to see if you can change your Slic3r settings (speeds, temperatures etc.) and try different materials to compare."
" we don't think we can improve anything mechanically on the printer."
"This printing technology will not provide better results. I am sorry about that."
" To get absolutely perfect details, you will have to go for SLA printing method"

if all of my FDM Printer would print like this, i would accept this, but a simple Prusa MK2s prints much much better than my MK3...

This is btw the worst Expirience with a support you can get, and this for a printer wich is not cheap.