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PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1  

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luma
 luma
(@luma)
PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

When I first built my Mk3 I noticed that the printer made a lot of clicking noise when the heatbed was enabled.  This apparently is a known behavior for 120VAC users and was later fixed in a firmware release (not sure which version).  I had kinda forgotten about it until installing 3.7.1, only to find that the noise is back.  Has that fix been reverted?

Posted : 15/05/2019 12:33 pm
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 --
(@)
Illustrious Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

I am running 3.7.1 and no noise here.

Posted : 15/05/2019 6:24 pm
luma
 luma
(@luma)
Topic starter answered:
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: Tim

I am running 3.7.1 and no noise here.

Did you have the PSU noise that others were experiencing in versions prior to 3.5.2?  Are you running on 120VAC?  This was in fact a known problem, which had been addressed in 3.5.2 by increasing the PWM frequency.  Checking the release notes for 3.7.1 RC1 it looks like they backed off on that, and the result is that the annoying clicking sound is back.

The release notes also suggest this was due to an issue with Rambo boards overheating.  As I'm using a mk3, I have an Einsy board in this system.  Is there a plan to allow Einsy users to avoid all the extra noise?

Posted : 15/05/2019 6:32 pm
Peter in Katy
(@peter-in-katy)
Estimable Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

Actually, it was the Einsy Rambos that were affected.

I believe the earlier versions were fine.

As far as I can recall, the newer switching frequency used in the bed heating circuit affected the mosfet, causing it to heat.  The capacitor right next to it on the board couldn't handle the heat, and did what overheated capacitors do.

 

I'm welcome to correction if I've misstated anything.

This post was modified 3 years ago by Peter in Katy
Posted : 15/05/2019 8:53 pm
bobstro
(@bobstro)
Illustrious Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: allen.d
Did you have the PSU noise that others were experiencing in versions prior to 3.5.2?  Are you running on 120VAC?  This was in fact a known problem, which had been addressed in 3.5.2 by increasing the PWM frequency.  Checking the release notes for 3.7.1 RC1 it looks like they backed off on that, and the result is that the annoying clicking sound is back.

I had the clicking early on but it subsided over several months. I'd notice a very faint noise once in a while in time with the heated bed LED. The recent updated firmware versions eliminated the noise (corresponding to a more constant bed LED) and the update to 3.7.1 has made no difference on my Mk3. All is quiet.

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Posted : 15/05/2019 9:09 pm
vintagepc
(@vintagepc)
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

The ticking is definitely back in 3.7.1. Not as bad as it used to be, but there's definitely a BZZZT noise when the bed is on, both from the einsy and the PSU. I made a video:

In the first part it's the BRRRRRT BRRRT BRRT BRRRT noise, that sorta syncs with the LED. You'll have to turn your volume up, I had to film this with a potato, unfortunately.

Posted : 15/05/2019 11:07 pm
Nikolai
(@nikolai)
Noble Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: bobstro

I had the clicking early on but it subsided over several months. I'd notice a very faint noise once in a while in time with the heated bed LED. The recent updated firmware versions eliminated the noise (corresponding to a more constant bed LED) and the update to 3.7.1 has made no difference on my Mk3. All is quiet.

Same story for me. No noise anymore with the 3.7.1.

They reduced the switching frequency in 3.7.1 slightly because otherwise on some boards it leads to capacitor overheating.

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Posted : 15/05/2019 11:24 pm
Funcrusher
(@funcrusher)
New Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

The clicking really bad on my MK3s using 3.7.1 now as well.  It's clear they need to take a closer look at how they're going to fix this disaster of a problem.

Posted : 22/05/2019 7:00 pm
tom.s33
(@tom-s33)
Eminent Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

I'd posted a similar message a few days ago about the clicking coming back on my (3 mo. old kit build) MK3S - I reflashed the board with 3.7.0 and all is well (except for occasional static noise coming from the PSU).  I never had overheating issues with the bed (crossing fingers).

Posted : 25/05/2019 12:52 pm
vintagepc
(@vintagepc)
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: tom.s33

I'd posted a similar message a few days ago about the clicking coming back on my (3 mo. old kit build) MK3S - I reflashed the board with 3.7.0 and all is well (except for occasional static noise coming from the PSU).  I never had overheating issues with the bed (crossing fingers).

It's not the bed, it's the MOSFET on the einsy that cooks a nearby capacitor; it takes it up/over the cap's rated temperature and will kill it in short order. You should probably go back to 3.7.1.

https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/bstbzj/users_of_firmware_between_version_352_and_370/

Posted : 25/05/2019 8:46 pm
tom.s33 liked
Funcrusher
(@funcrusher)
New Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

If 3.7.1 is still 79C on an open enclosure, its possible it may not actually be fixing the problem yet as the cap could be rated for as low as 85C. It helps, though.

Posted : 25/05/2019 9:27 pm
JBinFL
(@jbinfl)
Reputable Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1

This is very interesting .

I am like Bobstro and Nikolai-r,  earlier mild clicking that went away with 3.7.0 and stayed away with 3.71.  However, I have noticed since 3.5.2, it is hotter in my Lack enclosure now than before.  It never used to get above 77F before 3.5.2, but now it gets to 79 - 82 F rather quickly on all prints regardless of print time.  I am not sure that means the board is getting too hot, but I did notice the slight increase in temp in the enclosure.  No issues with prints yet though.

 

Strange women, laying in ponds, distributing swords, is hardly a basis for a system of governance!

Posted : 26/05/2019 12:36 am
Vojtěch
(@vojtech)
Honorable Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: Funcrusher

If 3.7.1 is still 79C on an open enclosure, its possible it may not actually be fixing the problem yet as the cap could be rated for as low as 85C. It helps, though.

The temperature rating of a capacitor isn't the maximum temperature that it can be operated at, but rather the temperature at which it'll achieve its expected lifetime. Those lifetimes are usually around 2000 hours for common aluminum electrolytic capacitors. 2000 hours is too little for a printer, so the capacitors need to be operated way below the rated temperature. Basically slightly above room temperature is still OK, anything approaching the rated temperature means an untimely demise. See Capacitor Life Calculator.

So if the capacitor is at 79°C, it could die as soon as after a few months of runtime.

Posted : 26/05/2019 1:00 am
Funcrusher
(@funcrusher)
New Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: Vojtěch
Posted by: Funcrusher

If 3.7.1 is still 79C on an open enclosure, its possible it may not actually be fixing the problem yet as the cap could be rated for as low as 85C. It helps, though.

The temperature rating of a capacitor isn't the maximum temperature that it can be operated at, but rather the temperature at which it'll achieve its expected lifetime. Those lifetimes are usually around 2000 hours for common aluminum electrolytic capacitors. 2000 hours is too little for a printer, so the capacitors need to be operated way below the rated temperature. Basically slightly above room temperature is still OK, anything approaching the rated temperature means an untimely demise. See Capacitor Life Calculator.

So if the capacitor is at 79°C, it could die as soon as after a few months of runtime.

Nobody is treating these as 'its gonna die at' temperatures(ignoring the fact that multiple have already failed), but the rated lifetime is concerning in combination with how long these firmwares have been available and running at temperatures easily exceeding this rating (3.7.0 clocking in at 106C in an OPEN chassis), even with the higher specced 105C capacitor that is believed to be on the board, only rated at 1000hrs. My printer arrived loaded with a firmware >3.5.2 if I remember correctly and has been running 3.6.x/3.7.x for a long while. I've clocked >396hrs of print time in 2 months of printing.

This post was modified 3 years ago 3 times by Funcrusher
Posted : 26/05/2019 1:11 am
meroped33
(@meroped33)
New Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: tom.s33

I'd posted a similar message a few days ago about the clicking coming back on my (3 mo. old kit build) MK3S - I reflashed the board with 3.7.0 and all is well (except for occasional static noise coming from the PSU).  I never had overheating issues with the bed (crossing fingers).

The release notes also suggest this was due to an issue with Rambo boards overheating.  As I'm using a mk3, I have an Einsy board in this system.  Is there a plan to allow Einsy users to avoid all the extra noise?

Posted : 26/05/2019 5:48 pm
vintagepc
(@vintagepc)
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: meroped33
Posted by: tom.s33

I'd posted a similar message a few days ago about the clicking coming back on my (3 mo. old kit build) MK3S - I reflashed the board with 3.7.0 and all is well (except for occasional static noise coming from the PSU).  I never had overheating issues with the bed (crossing fingers).

The release notes also suggest this was due to an issue with Rambo boards overheating.  As I'm using a mk3, I have an Einsy board in this system.  Is there a plan to allow Einsy users to avoid all the extra noise?

You're not off the hook, the Einsy is also affected. If it really bugs you, get the new black power supply.

Posted : 26/05/2019 5:56 pm
tom.s33
(@tom-s33)
Eminent Member
RE: PSU clicking is back with Firmware 3.7.1
Posted by: vintagepc
Posted by: tom.s33

I'd posted a similar message a few days ago about the clicking coming back on my (3 mo. old kit build) MK3S - I reflashed the board with 3.7.0 and all is well (except for occasional static noise coming from the PSU).  I never had overheating issues with the bed (crossing fingers).

It's not the bed, it's the MOSFET on the einsy that cooks a nearby capacitor; it takes it up/over the cap's rated temperature and will kill it in short order. You should probably go back to 3.7.1.

https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/bstbzj/users_of_firmware_between_version_352_and_370/

Good point.  Will do.

Posted : 26/05/2019 9:04 pm
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