1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)  

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Hey, So this morning (after staying up all night messing with my MK3)... I decided to run a temp calibration from the menu. After it was complete, I inserted the gcode to make the mesh leveling wait for the PINDA to hit 35c. I don't know if I fixed it or not, but it has been printing perfectly for the most part ever since. At least for two prints back to back. Fingers crossed this patches the issues until it is fixed. 😀

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

If you make sure that you always start a print with the same PINDA temperature (not warmer, not colder) you do not have to worry about temperature calibration at all:-) The "M861 S35" can be VERY helpful:-)

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

That sounds like your printer needs that calibration.

First step is to install the latest firmware (3.2.1 as of today).

Then you need to ask more specific - because I do not even now where to start. Have you used Pronterface before? You need that or something similar like the terminal in Octoprint for communicating to the printer. There you could do a "M861 ?" and look at your current calibration values.

For a quick and easy "solution" to your problem: Modify your startup gcode to include "M860 S35". Examples have been given. That will make sure that you always start a print with a PINDA temperature of 35C. If your PINDA is not WARMER when you start a print like this - you DO NOT NEED to calibrate (so make sure your PINDA is colder than 35C before starting a print). Because if you make sure that the PINDA is always the exact same temperature during mesh bed leveling - you do not need to calibrate for the other temperatures.

Hey! Thanks for responding. So I was up until 5:00am today working on this. So I’m not new to printing just new to this advanced of printing!

I hooked up Pronterface last night, and kind of figured it out.

I followed your instructions as best I could. I installed your firmware, and did all the tests. Wrote my results down and did the math. Then I tried to set my values with the M667 (I can’t remeber is this was the command) Sxx xx commands to no avail. I could get them to result.

So I restored my current firmware and went to bed.

My issues are exactly as you state. I get it all dialed in, and then the next print it changes. Also my bed isn’t level, so I almost always have to do bed correction.

I use S3D not Slic3r and I am not pretty familiar with Pronterface. I have OctoPrint set up too.

Hi!

You set the values with the command "M861 Sxx Iy" - for example, to set the 40C offset to 5 you do "M861 S5 I0". The 35C "offset" cannot be set as it is the reference value. So 45C Offset to -8 would be "M861 S-8 I1"

I am confused by the gcoding...

So 35c by 5 would be m861 s5 l0, l1, l2, l3, etc?

Don’t I have to do a M500 afterwards to save to eeprom?

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

If you make sure that you always start a print with the same PINDA temperature (not warmer, not colder) you do not have to worry about temperature calibration at all:-) The "M861 S35" can be VERY helpful:-)

I did! I started with a wait and warm command. Then it was good.

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I am confused by the gcoding...

So 35c by 5 would be m861 s5 l0, l1, l2, l3, etc?

Don’t I have to do a M500 afterwards to save to eeprom?

No, M861 saves to EEPROM directly. No need for M500.

For 35C you cannot set anything - offset is always 0
For 40C, you use M861 S<your offset> I0
For 45C, you use M861 S<your offset> I1
and so on

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I read the whole treath once. And honestly, you lose track. Okay, at least that's how I feel.
I entered the order once, and this came out. I don't think that's really good. Latest firmware MK3

SENDING:M861 ?
PINDA cal status: 1
index, temp, ustep, um
n/a, 35, 0, 0.00
0, 40, 0, 0.00
1, 45, 0, 0.00
2, 50, 0, 0.00
3, 55, 0, 0.00
4, 60, 0, 0.00

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I read the whole treath once. And honestly, you lose track. Okay, at least that's how I feel.
I entered the order once, and this came out. I don't think that's really good. Latest firmware MK3

SENDING:M861 ?
PINDA cal status: 1
index, temp, ustep, um
n/a, 35, 0, 0.00
0, 40, 0, 0.00
1, 45, 0, 0.00
2, 50, 0, 0.00
3, 55, 0, 0.00
4, 60, 0, 0.00

That is default values: all zeros. You have not calibrated your PINDA yet - be it automatically or manually. So that is good so far!

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I read the whole treath once. And honestly, you lose track. Okay, at least that's how I feel.
I entered the order once, and this came out. I don't think that's really good. Latest firmware MK3

SENDING:M861 ?
PINDA cal status: 1
index, temp, ustep, um
n/a, 35, 0, 0.00
0, 40, 0, 0.00
1, 45, 0, 0.00
2, 50, 0, 0.00
3, 55, 0, 0.00
4, 60, 0, 0.00

That is default values: all zeros. You have not calibrated your PINDA yet - be it automatically or manually. So that is good so far!

Okay, I've got the overall approach of manual calibration. But what I don't understand is how to preheat the Pinda? And somewhere I read that you can read the Pinda temperature in Pronterface. But apart from heating bed and hot end I don't see any Pinda temperature....?

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

To preheat the PINDA just park the extruder close to the heated bed, like Z1 or so.. the bed will heat it.

I have run into a small snag on the 35C base setting, which i have been using without calibrating any other temperature points.. my printers are in the garage, with southern and western sun exposure.. in Texas US... which means lately the garage’s ambient temp has been over 35C ! I think I’ll use 40C as my new “wait for” number until summer passes.. smh

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Hi Guys!

There is news!

I put up a new Pull Request on Prusa's GitHub that adds a new feature to the "wait for PINDA temp" M860 gcode: Now it is possible to not only wait for the PINDA to heat up - but also to wait for it to cool down.

The calling syntax stays exactly the same - so it will not break any existing start gcode scripts. The gcode now tests if the heaters are off. If both are off, it will wait until the PINDA is just COLDER then the set temperature.

Example: Heatbed and hotend are off: "M860 S35" waits until the PINDA is colder than 35C. If heatbed or hotend are on, the same command will wait until the PINDA is hotter than 35C.

So what is it all good for?

A) If you want to start each print with exactly the same PINDA temperature, you have to make sure, that the PINDA is colder then the wanted start temperature, before you activate the heaters - otherwise the PINDA is way warmer than the wanted start temperature.
B) If you do the manual temperature calibration, you need to wait a few minutes between each try until the PINDA is cool enough to start the next calibration temperature level. Now the wait can be made automatically possible made for you.
C) Which makes me excited - it might also make "manual temperature calibration" semi-automatic - is the possibility to fully automatically test your temperature values. I attach a new gcode file. In that file, which runs fully automatic, the PINDA is warmed up to all temperature levels of 35C, 40C, 45C,... 60C and each time the printer prints a small 2cm x 2cm square on the SAME heatbed (you do not need to remove the prints in between!). So you let this gcode run, and get a automatic verification if your temperature calibration works as you tried to calibrate it for. Awesome!

So I need testers! I attach the "temperature calibration verification gcode" that you could test this with. And of course the custom compiled firmware based on 3.2.1 containing the new version of the M860 gcode

Please tell me how it works for you!

You need to install a custom build firmware that includes the Pullrequest in order to run that gcode successfully - otherwise your results are wrong (as the PINDA will be to hot after the first square. Here is the Pull Request: https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/pull/794
Disclaimer: You do this on your own risk. If you do not know what you are doing, don't do it. I cannot made be responsible for any damage or side effects!!!

Here is a look at the outcome of the Gcode file: each square has been printed with a DIFFERENT PINDA temperature and constant live Z - because my PINDA is calibrated

35 40 45
50 55 60
is the square order on the bed

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I am not sure if I understood all this correctly..... I'm running your gcode with your customized firmware. Okay, so far we're good. But how do I get the values discussed in this treaht that I have to store for each temperature (35,40,45 etc.)? Or is that unnecessary with this adapted M860 firmware? But what does that still mean to use Gcode M860 in the slicer...?

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

I am not sure if I understood all this correctly..... I'm running your gcode with your customized firmware. Okay, so far we're good. But how do I get the values discussed in this treaht that I have to store for each temperature (35,40,45 etc.)? Or is that unnecessary with this adapted M860 firmware? But what does that still mean to use Gcode M860 in the slicer...?

You could try to do the temperature calibration based on the print of the new gcode file:-) But that would be a totally new approach.

What my intention is so far:
You need to do the temperature calibration first, make sure that temp calibration is active. If you then print the new gcode file with the six squares you can have a look at these: do they all look the same? congratulations, your temperature calibration is perfect. If some look squished, while others seem "too high" - then your temperature calibration is bad.

I do not get your question about Slicer. You SHOULD add M860S 35 before mesh bed leveling and homing always. You need to add a homing operation BEFORE so that you can move the PINDA in a good heating position - see start gcodes that have been posted in this thread for example.
With the new behavior of the M860 command, you could add this command two times to create a startup gcode like that:

1. Home
2. Move Z up for e.g. 10cm
3. Enable Fan
4. Wait for PINDA to Cool down to 30C
5. Enable heaters
6. Wait until they are hot
7. Move PINDA in a heating position
8. Wait for PINDA to heat to 35C
9. Home again
10 Mesh bed leveling
11. Start print

That way, your print will ALWAYS start at 35C -> No need to have a temperature calibration;-)

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

The Pull Request got merged. So everyone will be able to Cool down the PINDA to a certain temperature before starting the heat up. nice!

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

So will the merge appear in the next iteration of the firmware then or how does it work?

Regards
-DerBierBaron

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Yes, this was merged to 'master' branch. In this case it means it will be part of the next official release.

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

stahlfabrik

You are the man!!!!! 😀 😀 😀

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Thank you Stanlfabrik!!!

Despite months of tackling the print not sticking to the bed and chatting with support, I could not get my MK2 to print correctly. I downloaded (I believe it was yours) the calibration surface PLA.75x7500...v4.gcode and my printer worked like a charm 😀

Of course, after that, the new and improved MK3 came out. I would have been happy with the 2.5 Upgrade kit, but when I print with PET, your code does not work. I can't get past this because I need to print upgrade parts to turn this into a MK2.5.

I see there is a new calibration code which I've downloaded and tried to use, along with the manual PINDA temp. calibration but it still is not sticking. I'm a newbie and don't know code.

My question to you, are the latest downloads on this string also applicable to the MK2 using PET or are they just for the new MK3?

If not, what do you recommend for getting PET to stick on old MK2? ... besides buying a brand new MK3?

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

stahlfabrik

You are the man!!!!! 😀 😀 😀

\m/

😆

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Thank you Stanlfabrik!!!

Despite months of tackling the print not sticking to the bed and chatting with support, I could not get my MK2 to print correctly. I downloaded (I believe it was yours) the calibration surface PLA.75x7500...v4.gcode and my printer worked like a charm 😀

Of course, after that, the new and improved MK3 came out. I would have been happy with the 2.5 Upgrade kit, but when I print with PET, your code does not work. I can't get past this because I need to print upgrade parts to turn this into a MK2.5.

I see there is a new calibration code which I've downloaded and tried to use, along with the manual PINDA temp. calibration but it still is not sticking. I'm a newbie and don't know code.

My question to you, are the latest downloads on this string also applicable to the MK2 using PET or are they just for the new MK3?

If not, what do you recommend for getting PET to stick on old MK2? ... besides buying a brand new MK3?

Hi Cathy,

I would advise you to open up a separate forum thread for your PET issue! What helped me was print slower in the first layer and hotter. Normally the problem with PETG is that it sticks TOO WELL to PEI, so be sure to use glue stick or window cleaner on the PEI before you print PETG.

I think you confuse my code - I do not know the "75x7500...v4.gcode". All gcode files that are in THIS thread are for PLA - not PETG.

Gerneally if your print never sticks, it is NOT a calibration of the PINDA issue. It is more likely that your print bed is not clean - always use IPA 90-99% to clean the bed. You need a PINDA calibration if your first layers come out differently each time: so maybe you dial live z perfectly and next time you print, it is off again - that is when you need to calibrate the PINDA temperature compensation.

Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)

Is it normal for the PINDA temp to increase in temp from 35c to 42c in about 60 -80 seconds during the 1st layer print? my layer height changes as I try to print a first layer calibration print