Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I must chime in and thank you, stahlfabrik, for your excellent work. With RC2, I get perfect first layers every time.
Great to hear! Did you also adjust the EEPROM ustep values? What did you do for that? What does "M861 ?" return? Do you even have temperature calibration enabled?:-)
So many questions 😆
Hehe. I didn't really have that many problems before, except for having to fiddle with Live Z a little too often. Actually, all I really needed was the 860 gcode to wait for PINDA to reach 35 degrees. I haven't even performed a temp calibration. 🙂 I just think you deserve credit for your hard work.
Ah ok! Yeah if you manage to start with the same PINDA temperature every time, you obviously do not need to care about temperature calibration:-) It is just that the PINDA can be easily warmer than 35C, if you restart a print or do a second print after the first print finished. That is when an optimal temperature compensation/calibration EEPROM value come into play - so you literally do not have to touch live z ever again.
For my MK3, the default calibration of values of 3.1.3 and earlier where a complete miss match. With the temp calibration turned off, the situation was already so much better. And with my optimized values, the calibration is perfect.
Just to repeat: In 3.2.0: after a factory reset, temperature calibration is off, and the eeprom values are all 0 - so even when temp calibration is turned on in the settings menu, effectively it still stays off:-)
And I have just bad experiences with the the build in automatic temperature calibration which - for my MK3 - is totally crap. But I do not want to repeat myself, over and over again. Just so much: If you are ready for Pinda calibration heaven - I propose you do the manual, print based calibration that is discussed in this thread.
Thank you for your kind words - I am very happy I could improve our situation a LOT 
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I stumbled acros this post/problem because I have the same problem with inconsistent first layers.
I've done a firmware upgrade (to 3.2.0-555) and also an automatic temperature calibration. (I have an MK2.5)
Now I want to do the manual calibration but I'm just wondering about how to get the PINDA to 35°C and not overshoot.
Or to get it to over 45°C. In the wiki it says you have to increase bed temperature. But for my PLA more than 60°C it's not good.
What to do with this temperatures?
Greetings
Saij
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I stumbled acros this post/problem because I have the same problem with inconsistent first layers.
I've done a firmware upgrade (to 3.2.0-555) and also an automatic temperature calibration. (I have an MK2.5)
Now I want to do the manual calibration but I'm just wondering about how to get the PINDA to 35°C and not overshoot.
Or to get it to over 45°C. In the wiki it says you have to increase bed temperature. But for my PLA more than 60°C it's not good.
What to do with this temperatures?
Greetings
Saij
Hello Saij,
I would recommend to read the last three pages of this thread - everything is there:-)
But you asked specific questions, so let me help you:
"I've done a firmware upgrade (to 3.2.0-555) and also an automatic temperature calibration." - So the automatic calibration did not produce a good results for you? Welcome to the club:-) You could do now just for fun send the printer the "M861 ?" and note down the temperature calibration values that the automatic calibration has found for you.
"Now I want to do the manual calibration but I'm just wondering about how to get the PINDA to 35°C and not overshoot." Well, you use the "M860 S35" for example to wait until the PINDA is 35C warm. Then homing and mesh bed leveling is done quickly. When it is finished, the PINDA might have gotten a little warmer, but that can be neglected! So yeah, it overshoots, but just a tiny bit.
"Or to get it to over 45°C. In the wiki it says you have to increase bed temperature. But for my PLA more than 60°C it's not good." - With normal PLA settings in an enclosure my PINDA has just reached 45C. You also need PINDA temperatures of 50C, 55C and 60C during manual calibration. So you need to make the bed hotter. It is not a problem at all for PLA (I think the first layer gets a little different and the PLA is a little harder to remove - but everything works out just fine based from my experiences. So if I recall correctly I went up to 80C to 90C to reach 60C PINDA temperature.
"What to do with this temperatures?" Experiment! Just as stated before it is no problem for PLA - not for the purpose of printing just one layer.
Before you start: DEACTIVATE temperature calibration by "M861 Z" - and to be save go to menu and settings and disable temp cal. there as well!
Greetings to you!
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I've downloaded 3.2. and upgraded Slicer to 1.39.2 but the start gcode doesn't have a wait for the pinda to reach 35. I noticed that when I do my first print I need to adjust the z down by .008. But the second print I need to adjust it back up by .008. Any thoughts or did I miss something? Better yet, is the ultimate solution to print a first layer at different temps and manually put offsets into eeprom? Here are my offsets by doing the temp calibration.
SENDING:M861 ?
PINDA cal status: 1
index, temp, ustep, um
n/a, 35, 0, 0.00
0, 40, -9, -22.50
1, 45, -16, -40.00
2, 50, -6, -15.00
3, 55, 13, 32.50
4, 60, 49, 122.50
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
You have to put the gcode to the start Code yourself.
If you wait until pinda is at least 35C live z should be stable - if your calibration values are correct
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Hey so I thought I would check here, I've grabbed someone else's start gcode - sean.h8's I believe - and added in the M860 to wait for the PINDA temp probe to reach 35C.
I haven't done a manual adjustment (yet) - I upgraded to the newest firmware (3.2.0-555) and re-did the auto temp calibration. I'm not sure if its doing the same thing but it resembles what the PR employee was talking about earlier in the thread, putting the extruder head close to the bed (no SS sheet) and running the HB up through 6 different temperature variations.
It takes a while at each step so I think it is waiting for the PINDA to reach temp.
I don't have mine in an enclosure (yet) so the last temp calibration - 110C - obviously it was struggling to get the PINDA temp probe up to temperature. I was busy with something else but it would have waited for about an hour or so trying to hit that temp. In the end I tuned it up to 120C or more to get the calibration to finish.
Anyway here is the start gcode I ended up with, it doesn't take long to get the PINDA temp probe up to temp, maybe 20-30 secs tops? Let me know if I have it wrong here. Also, does this need to change if I am printing in different filament types? ie 35C for PLA, higher for PETG/ABS/etc? If so is there some way to calculate that difference rather than have it hard set?
M115 U3.2.0-555 ; tell printer latest fw version
M201 X1000 Y1000 Z200 E5000 ; sets maximum accelerations, mm/sec^2
M203 X200 Y200 Z12 E120 ; sets maximum feedrates, mm/sec
M204 S1250 T1250 ; sets acceleration (S) and retract acceleration (T)
M205 X10 Y10 Z0.4 E2.5 ; sets the jerk limits, mm/sec
M205 S0 T0 ; sets the minimum extruding and travel feed rate, mm/sec
M83 ; extruder relative mode
G28 W ; home all without mesh bed level
G0 Z50 ; raise Z to not heat PINDA before bed is too warm
M104 S{first_layer_temperature[0] - 40} ; Set nozzle temp 40c below first layer temp.
M140 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; set bed temp
M190 S[first_layer_bed_temperature] ; wait for bed temp
{if first_layer_temperature[0] < 241}M106 S255{endif} ; wait extruder temp
M109 S[first_layer_temperature] ; wait for extruder temp
G0 X50 Y50 Z0.15 ; move PINDA to heating position
M860 S35 ; wait until PINDA is above 35C
G28 W ; home all without mesh bed level
G80 ; mesh bed leveling
G1 Y-3.0 F1000.0 ; go outside print area
M106 S0 ; Turn cooling fan off before printing anything
G92 E0.0
G1 X60.0 E9.0 F1000.0 ; intro line
G1 X150.0 E12.5 F1000.0 ; intro line
G92 E0.0
M221 S{if layer_height<0.075}100{else}95{endif}
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Please checkout my startup gcodes here: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/hardware-firmware-and-software-help-f64/1st-layer-problems-in-depth-look-at-software-pinda-t14815-s150.html#p81911
There is one for everyday printing and one if you want to do the manual temperature calibration.
The one you posted above is not well suited for everyday printing IF your PINDA is well calibrated. Because you want to heat the pinda quickly then. So you should not move it up - otherwise it looks OKish on first sight. So I guess your startup code is good for an (temperature) UNCALIBRATED MK3. The idea is then to start the print with the SAME pinda temperature everytime - it sucks to wait until the PINDA has cooled down - and the Gcode cannot do that - so I would recommend you to do a manual print based calibration as described here on the last four to five pages. It pays out!
No matter what filament is used. M860 S35 is what you want for everyday printing. If your temperature calibration is good the pinda just needs to be warmer than 35C. How warm does not matter.
I have yet to find someone who says the values from manual print based calibration were matching the values gained from automatic calibration. Usually they are enormously different.
I have yet to find someone who said he or she was unhappy with the results from manual calibration. 😆
So that is the status quo in 3.2.0
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Please checkout my startup gcodes here: https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/hardware-firmware-and-software-help-f64/1st-layer-problems-in-depth-look-at-software-pinda-t14815-s150.html#p81911
There is one for everyday printing and one if you want to do the manual temperature calibration.
The one you posted above is not well suited for everyday printing. Because you want to heat the pinda quickly then.
No matter what filament is used. M860 S35 is what you want for everyday printing. If your temperature calibration is good the pinda just needs to be warmer than 35C. How warm does not matter.
I have yet to find someone who says the values from manual print based calibration were matching the values gained from automatic calibration. Usually they are enormously different.
I have yet to find someone who said he or she was unhappy with the results from manual calibration.
So that is the status quo in 3.2.0
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I'll have a go at it after I finish the current job (~8 hours). I'll post the before/after values too.
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
I'll have a go at it after I finish the current job (~8 hours). I'll post the before/after values too.
Great! It is always funny to compare the automatic derived values with the ones you come up with when doing the manual calibration.
Please also read the ruff outline, on how to do it here: https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/wiki/Manual-temperature-calibration
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
This looks very neat.
Just so i understand the math.
Index Temp z-offset um ustep
n/a 35 -0,992 0
0 40 -0,97 -22 -9
1 45 -1,007 15 6
2 50 -1,022 30 12
3 55 -1,06 68 27
4 60 -1,155 163 65
It is always Index num 0 through 4 - the first (n/a) z-offset?
then the z-offset difference that we get * 400 ?
This multiplier 400, is this the same for MK2.5?
---
Gert
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
This looks very neat.
Just so i understand the math.
Index Temp z-offset um ustep
n/a 35 -0,992 0
0 40 -0,97 -22 -9
1 45 -1,007 15 6
2 50 -1,022 30 12
3 55 -1,06 68 27
4 60 -1,155 163 65
It is always Index num 0 through 4 - the first (n/a) z-offset?
then the z-offset difference that we get * 400 ?
This multiplier 400, is this the same for MK2.5?
Hi Gert,
could you compile a firmware and print out "axis_steps_per_unit[Z_AXIS]"? That should tell us, what the multiplier is.
Index 0 is for 40C, Index 1 is for 45C...
35C is the reference and thus there is no offset (it is always zero).
Best regards
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Oh, I just figured one could simply look in the variants file:
// Steps per unit {X,Y,Z,E}
#define DEFAULT_AXIS_STEPS_PER_UNIT {100,100,3200/8,133}
So 400 it should be:-)
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Does this this spreadsheet look right? I tested it with your values in the original post and they looked okay. I'm not sure about how to deal with positive / negative values.
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
So 400 it should be:-)
Thanks
Ok, so the 3D printing needs you to go from "How to load the filament" to "Be a matematician" also.
Made below excel, think it should be good, let me know otherwise.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pAhfPE7-ykOfATUp9JKtVWgpirPoHDaZOpTDBiVo0fc/edit?usp=sharing
---
Gert
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Made below excel, think it should be good, let me know otherwise.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Na, it was backwards, now it should be ok. +--+, gets me confused.
---
Gert
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
So 400 it should be:-)
Thanks
Ok, so the 3D printing needs you to go from "How to load the filament" to "Be a matematician" also.
Made below excel, think it should be good, let me know otherwise.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pAhfPE7-ykOfATUp9JKtVWgpirPoHDaZOpTDBiVo0fc/edit?usp=sharing
Very handy! You get an A in 3D printing maths!
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Does this this spreadsheet look right? I tested it with your values in the original post and they looked okay. I'm not sure about how to deal with positive / negative values.
Hi Stephen. Please check out gerts google docs above. I think he has it figured out with the sign.
„Less negative“ means minus. Funny, but that’s the way it is.
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Agreed, gert is there a way to allow downloading a copy?
Re: 1st layer problems - in depth look at software PINDA problems (and solutions!)
Agreed, gert is there a way to allow downloading a copy?
Im not really good in these google docs, i think you can make a copy. This should be editable. It will end up in your Google Docs i guess.
Let me know other wise i can pull out the formulas.
---
Gert