RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
To late again.
I was wrong, that price is for the X1C, AMS is E325.
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
I think you are right if you do not need or want a tool changer.
If the X1C is as good as the spec, then surely its a nobrainer? even cheaper if you don't believe the AMS is any better than the MMS.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
I think you can. The X1C without AMS is 1354.80 EUR (incl. 20% VAT). That is roughly 60% more expensive than the Prusa Mk3s+ kit.
To me that is everything but a no-brainer. It really depends if you want or need the extra stuff and features of the Bambulab because if you don't you can get a product known to be very reliable long term (the jury is still out there in regards to the Bambulab) for considerably less money. The AMS is not really a factor, you can get a tool changer with both printers and they are probably equally finicky and have a similar price tag.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Yes the X1C costs €1.129,00 + Vat (approx €1400). The MK3s assembled (you can't compare a fully assembled unit with a kit) €1,159. If my math is correct (which is highly unlikely) the X1C costs 20% more.
For that price difference you get an enclosure, CoreXY, 300C nozzle, 120C bed, lights, camera, Wifi and some supposably (Joey) fancy bed sensing. Who knows if the bed sensing technology is a gimmick, although all the reviews I've read are positive. The obvious downside is the propitiatory hotend and firmware. Yes I still say it's a no brainer.
I'm sure your last statement is correct although I would hope that nobody would try to sell a filament changer that is as bad as Prusa's MMU is reported to be.
RE:
Yes, if you want an assembled printer the price difference is smaller. However, if we stay in the hobbyist market, a lot of people have no problem with or even like to have a kit. If you want to save money and don't mind a kit the X1C is 60% more expensive to have. That's a substantial extra cost. Of course, for those who are not interested in a kit the difference is much smaller.
I know that you get more with the Bambulab but you also get less (more closed system, higher reliance on a single company for spares etc and therefore a less future proof system). Now it depends a lot on the individual needs if the different offer from Bambulab is worth it for you. For me, I couldn't care less about lights, camera, Wifi and fancy bed sensing. Prusa offers 280°C hotend and 120°C bed. In Europe (220V), the X1c is rated for 300°C hotend but only 110°C heatbed. Overall comparable. The Prusa can be upgraded for higher hotend temperatures for very little money if one really needs that which I wouldn't know why. Those high temperature engineering materials are usually not fun to print without a heated chamber, which neither offer.
Summary:
The big + points of the Bambulab which really matter are IMHO speed/better cooling, core-xy and input shaping. The negative points are a more closed system, higher reliance on one manufacturer and the big question mark is long term reliability. You can ge that for +20% in price assembled and +60% compared to the Prusa kit. If that is worth it is not a no brainer but depends on individual demands/preferences.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Regarding the MMU. I own one. I have heard a lot of complaints about the AMS, I know all sorts of complaints about the MMU. Neither of them are as plug and play as their base printers are I assume. I have no evidence suggesting that the AMS is less tricky than the MMU in actual use but I know from my own experience that the MMU can be used as a perfectly reliable tool and I would think so can the AMS.
On the net, especially here in this forum you can read from all the people having problems, you won't read that much from people who are using it as perfectly reliable tool. The big downside is that it is something that might need dialing in and is wasteful in time and material. Downsides which are inherent to the principle, not the MMU itself.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
However, if we stay in the hobbyist market, a lot of people have no problem with or even like to have a kit. If you want to save money and don't mind a kit the X1C is 60% more expensive to have. That's a substantial extra cost.
If cost is a major decider then there's a version of the X1 coming soon called the 'P1P' that will be $100 cheaper than the mk3s kit but still fully assembled. It just drops some features like lidar, camera, and the touchscreen.
I have heard a lot of complaints about the AMS, I know all sorts of complaints about the MMU.
I'm sure people do have complaints and issues with the AMS. I haven't had any experience with the MMU, but have read some reviews such as https://www.fabbaloo.com/2020/01/hands-on-with-the-prusa-mmu2s-part-1 that haven't painted it in the greatest light.
"I had thought the lengthy and tedious assembly process would be the worst part of the upgrade.
I was wrong.
Very wrong."
Even on Prusa's own website it's only rated 3 stars. I don't think I'm being unfair here, as just haven't heard nearly the same level of complaints around the AMS.
In my experience using the AMS it has been a breeze. Took 2 minutes to connect, and has worked solidly ever since. From comparing my experience with that and reading the review, I honestly don't think they're in the same category, as also has great features like RFID detection of the spools, humidity sensor, and is enclosed.
Anyway, of course we could go around all day debating the specifics of which has the better x,y,z. But I personally just think we're at the point where the MK3S can't be considered the default best experience anymore, though I don't think I'm alone in that view. It was also my initial experience with this printer at the start of the thread that it did some things very nicely, but lacks in others (such as surface quality). Of course that all might change with the MK4 eventually, and I hope they can answer the competition in a compelling way, will certainly be very interesting to see how Prusa eventually respond.
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Maybe. I have built 3 MMU/MMUS and felt it was a breeze to setup and use. I built them for others because I do not have a use for an MMU or AMS that sticks to a single filament type or similar filament. I do have a use for the tool changer with multiple heads.
Is the MK3S at the point where it might not be the best? Maybe again. Time will tell. I think competition is a good thing and it will make Prusa Better. Bambu is not a competitor for Prusa at this time. We will just have to disagree at this time. 100K printers vs 10K is all that needs to be said. Bambu might be the next competitor but it is not competition at this stage and I just reserve one.
However, if we stay in the hobbyist market, a lot of people have no problem with or even like to have a kit. If you want to save money and don't mind a kit the X1C is 60% more expensive to have. That's a substantial extra cost.
If cost is a major decider then there's a version of the X1 coming soon called the 'P1P' that will be $100 cheaper than the mk3s kit but still fully assembled. It just drops some features like lidar, camera, and the touchscreen.
I have heard a lot of complaints about the AMS, I know all sorts of complaints about the MMU.
I'm sure people do have complaints and issues with the AMS. I haven't had any experience with the MMU, but have read some reviews such as https://www.fabbaloo.com/2020/01/hands-on-with-the-prusa-mmu2s-part-1 that haven't painted it in the greatest light.
"I had thought the lengthy and tedious assembly process would be the worst part of the upgrade.
I was wrong.
Very wrong."
Even on Prusa's own website it's only rated 3 stars. I don't think I'm being unfair here, as just haven't heard nearly the same level of complaints around the AMS.
In my experience using the AMS it has been a breeze. Took 2 minutes to connect, and has worked solidly ever since. From comparing my experience with that and reading the review, I honestly don't think they're in the same category, as also has great features like RFID detection of the spools, humidity sensor, and is enclosed.
Anyway, of course we could go around all day debating the specifics of which has the better x,y,z. But I personally just think we're at the point where the MK3S can't be considered the default best experience anymore, though I don't think I'm alone in that view. It was also my initial experience with this printer at the start of the thread that it did some things very nicely, but lacks in others (such as surface quality). Of course that all might change with the MK4 eventually, and I hope they can answer the competition in a compelling way, will certainly be very interesting to see how Prusa eventually respond.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Bambu is not a competitor for Prusa at this time. We will just have to disagree at this time. 100K printers vs 10K is all that needs to be said. Bambu might be the next competitor but it is not competition at this stage and I just reserve one.
How is it not a competitor ? People would absolutely be doing comparisons between the MK3S and the X1 / X1C / P1P when deciding what printer to buy. Just join any Prusa group on Facebook and see how much discussion there is comparing between the two. Not to mention the other cohort of people who have dropped their XL pre-orders for an X1C.
I dont think comparing sales over very different time periods is a very useful way to determine if they are / aren't a competitor.
If Bambu isn't a competitor for Prusa, who do you consider Prusa's primary competitor(s) do be then ?
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Bambu is not a competitor for Prusa at this time. We will just have to disagree at this time. 100K printers vs 10K is all that needs to be said. Bambu might be the next competitor but it is not competition at this stage and I just reserve one.
How is it not a competitor ? People would absolutely be doing comparisons between the MK3S and the X1 / X1C / P1P when deciding what printer to buy. Just join any Prusa group on Facebook and see how much discussion there is comparing between the two. Not to mention the other cohort of people who have dropped their XL pre-orders for an X1C.
I dont think comparing sales over very different time periods is a very useful way to determine if they are / aren't a competitor.
If Bambu isn't a competitor for Prusa, who do you consider Prusa's primary competitor(s) do be then ?
It is not a legitimate competitor. The bottom line is that it is not currently a threat to Prusa. It might get there but it is small potatoes.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
The P1P might indeed be a harder competition for the Mk3s+ but everything about it is still speculation. I'll comment on that when I have seen people actually reviewing it, including a real world price tag (incl. VAT). So I'll stay with what exists and mind you the X1C is also still officially "pre-order" and not in regular sales but apparently you can already get it as a regular customer in a reasonable timeframe so I think it counts already. It is in many ways a superior printer to the Mk3s+, but to me it is as of yet unknown how futureproof it is for two reasons. As a closed system, if the company goes bust, the long term supply with replacement parts will be uncertain and as it is brand new, there is simply no information out there on long term reliability. The former will be hard to resolve but if the latter can be confirmed, I am inclined to agree that the X1C is starting too look like the better, yet more expensive deal.
If the P1P were to keep all the essentials of the X1C, throw out the toys and remove the enclosure for cost saving reasons, I'll be inclined to talk about an Mk3+s killer if it is cheaper as well and also shows itself to be long term reliable. A lot of ifs at that point however, I'll wait for facts.
Regarding the review of the MMU. Reads a bit click-baity, if the electronic wiring was the most challenging part of assembly as reported in that review I can only wonder to be honest (it is literally just clipping some things together and some wire management which is explained in the outmost detail in the manual). I have no experience in assembling machinery beyond the 3d-printing hobby, and managed just fine, geting the MMU up and running reliably. Yes, I needed to get close in and trouble shoot a bit but like I said, I expect that to be the case for the AMS for some as well. Yet at the same time I know people personally who simply assembled the MMU started it and it worked like a charm from the getgo. I am not surprised there are also those experiences with the AMS too, from trouble shooting for some to plug and print for others.
In the end this is not representative information. There are also fairly few people owning both to properly compare them. So which one is better? I would not dare to judge. All I know is that they are both based on the same general principle and that means that they are ridiculously material and time wasting devices which can yield very nice looking multicolour objects (and are not that well suited for true multi-material applications even if those are partially possible to pull off too). Double extruders and tool changers are vastly superior, however the latter don't exist yet in a customer friendly way. Indeed, I would have wished Bambulab had ditched the AMS and instead focused on bringing a dual extruder to the market. That would have been much more interesting in my opinion.
Posted by: @dave-f
However, if we stay in the hobbyist market, a lot of people have no problem with or even like to have a kit. If you want to save money and don't mind a kit the X1C is 60% more expensive to have. That's a substantial extra cost.
If cost is a major decider then there's a version of the X1 coming soon called the 'P1P' that will be $100 cheaper than the mk3s kit but still fully assembled. It just drops some features like lidar, camera, and the touchscreen.
I have heard a lot of complaints about the AMS, I know all sorts of complaints about the MMU.
I'm sure people do have complaints and issues with the AMS. I haven't had any experience with the MMU, but have read some reviews such as https://www.fabbaloo.com/2020/01/hands-on-with-the-prusa-mmu2s-part-1 that haven't painted it in the greatest light.
"I had thought the lengthy and tedious assembly process would be the worst part of the upgrade.
I was wrong.
Very wrong."
Even on Prusa's own website it's only rated 3 stars. I don't think I'm being unfair here, as just haven't heard nearly the same level of complaints around the AMS.
In my experience using the AMS it has been a breeze. Took 2 minutes to connect, and has worked solidly ever since. From comparing my experience with that and reading the review, I honestly don't think they're in the same category, as also has great features like RFID detection of the spools, humidity sensor, and is enclosed.
Anyway, of course we could go around all day debating the specifics of which has the better x,y,z. But I personally just think we're at the point where the MK3S can't be considered the default best experience anymore, though I don't think I'm alone in that view. It was also my initial experience with this printer at the start of the thread that it did some things very nicely, but lacks in others (such as surface quality). Of course that all might change with the MK4 eventually, and I hope they can answer the competition in a compelling way, will certainly be very interesting to see how Prusa eventually respond.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
PS: There are a lot of rumours flying around currently but what I find annoying is how people are apparently comparing prices excl. tax with price tax included. All the prices I have seen from Bambulab are excl. tax. If the P1P will have a price of 699 USD (tax excl.) which is just rumour at this point, it won't be actually cheaper than the Mk3s+ kit. It will cost basically the same. That might be a good offer nonetheless but let's just stay with the facts, which means, wait at least for official price information as also my numbers are speculation.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Bambu is not a competitor for Prusa at this time. We will just have to disagree at this time. 100K printers vs 10K is all that needs to be said. Bambu might be the next competitor but it is not competition at this stage and I just reserve one.
How is it not a competitor ? People would absolutely be doing comparisons between the MK3S and the X1 / X1C / P1P when deciding what printer to buy. Just join any Prusa group on Facebook and see how much discussion there is comparing between the two. Not to mention the other cohort of people who have dropped their XL pre-orders for an X1C.
I dont think comparing sales over very different time periods is a very useful way to determine if they are / aren't a competitor.
If Bambu isn't a competitor for Prusa, who do you consider Prusa's primary competitor(s) do be then ?
It is not a legitimate competitor. The bottom line is that it is not currently a threat to Prusa. It might get there but it is small potatoes.
It's almost a year later since these comments. Interested in your current thoughts on where things are headed.
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
Bambu is not a competitor for Prusa at this time. We will just have to disagree at this time. 100K printers vs 10K is all that needs to be said. Bambu might be the next competitor but it is not competition at this stage and I just reserve one.
How is it not a competitor ? People would absolutely be doing comparisons between the MK3S and the X1 / X1C / P1P when deciding what printer to buy. Just join any Prusa group on Facebook and see how much discussion there is comparing between the two. Not to mention the other cohort of people who have dropped their XL pre-orders for an X1C.
I dont think comparing sales over very different time periods is a very useful way to determine if they are / aren't a competitor.
If Bambu isn't a competitor for Prusa, who do you consider Prusa's primary competitor(s) do be then ?
It is not a legitimate competitor. The bottom line is that it is not currently a threat to Prusa. It might get there but it is small potatoes.
It's almost a year later since these comments. Interested in your current thoughts on where things are headed.
I agree. Not a thread. The Mk4 is an equal in general. When you add the Prusa support and number of users, the Mk4 is superior. I own both and prefer the Prusa. I am not sure what I am going to do with my Mk3Ss.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?
It is hard to believe anyone thinks that Bambulabs is not a very close competitor to Prusa.. Look at the haste Prusa released the MK4. One of the things often overlooked.. speaking as a network person, is that the Prusa network hardware and software is truly abysmal compared to the current technology. Sure, it works.. but Prusa just released the XL and MK4 and they don't have networking hardware or software that will make the most out of their machine for the next 5 years. The "ping" utility, a very core staple part of TCP/IP still doesn't work in the XL (from reports .. and likely broken on all others) nearly a year after being reported. Prusa would have been better to work with the Octoprint lady and incorporate that technology full time into their offerings. I think Prusa has underestimated how difficult that is to do themselves.
I've got an MK3+ and the Octoprint system is extremely reliable and full-featured (I wouldn't consider the MK3S+ without octoprint). I've used the X1C and AMS, and the AMS is waaayyyy more robust than the MMU2 from reports I've read. (many people are adding their own Buck regulator to the MMU2 to provide proper voltage) We had virtually no errors setting up and using the AMS, and that's with zero experience. Now you need to use their spools, but I would not get an X1C without their AMS.
When people are comparing the Bambulabs with MK4, you are not getting anywhere near the same networking/communication system (camera attached). Octoprint is not "as" supported on the MK4 as on the MK3s .. To add Octoprint and a camera, you are looking at significant extra cost, if you go for a Pi4 or 5 (but admittedly you can do a Pi zero 2).
Having said that.. I love the reliability and serviceability of the Prusa line. I fear BambuLabs did not put nearly enough effort into making their machine serviceable, assuming it might not need service. But there are still lots of reports of people needing to send their Prusa back for replacement because they could not get it to the quality level necessary.
The new MK4 looks like a very well built machine.. one I'd like to purchase.. but they need different/better network communication hardware to feed their 32 bit controller. Same for the XL.