Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?  

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @dave-f

Perfect surfaces are unachievable with FDM printing to begin with. There are however indeed differences in artefacts and imperfections.

Yes of course. I was never expecting perfect. I just expected similar or better surface quality than my much cheaper Bowen style machines from the mk3s.

For now I’ve been able to achieve that with the ender s1, and will move to the bambu lab x1 once it’s here in a few months. 

Obviously the mk3s is excellent when it comes to reliability, but is clear to me now from looking at the alternatives there’s better options if chasing print quality.

I don't say your Mk3s did not produce subpar surface finish, however, your broad statement that they do so in general has been disproven here by several people. And the chance that you get an underperforming Ender is considerably higher than with a Prusa. Of course individual experiences can vary. I don't know any FDM printers which are cheaper than a Prusa and systematically outperform it (also after 10 000 hours of printing). There are plenty of choices where you can get similar results, especially if you do some relatively cost effective upgrades but rarely do they get beyond. You need to go to Core XY printers, preferably with input shaping to get to better levels. Maybe the Bambulab manages that but the reviews so far were a bit mixed on that, which is probably because most reviewers used the fast stock settings. What I would be interested in is how the X1 performs at speeds comparable to common Mk3s settings. Still, the Bambulab might be a better printer (if it can durably print in good quality in the long run) but it is certainly not a cheaper printer than the Mk3s.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

I have found that when filing or sanding the PLA  turns white.. It is hard to get the color back.. I can heat with a 'jet' type of lighter (which, by the way are amazing) and it helps, but also causes the PLA to swell slightly. How do you make it so the color does not lighten?

Posted by: @cwbullet

 

Posted by: @thejiral

Perfect surfaces are unachievable with FDM printing

That is what sandpaper is for.  

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

I think one of the real weaknesses of the Prusa is its lack of communication & control. The USB port is based on a slow protocol I designed with in 1980. Having used OctoPrint, I can't imagine using a printer without its features and some of the major plugins.. (ie: a rectangular exclusion region,). I don't see Prusa Connect really addressing that as it has taken too long to come out and not sure if it can have the core features OctoPrint provides. It would be nice if you could get that all in one board.. but you'd need to run a "real time OS" (like QNX) to ensure the hardware runs on time, or a second processor just for communication. Currently a PI4 adds $200 Cdn to the cost plus configuration. I see that a major advantage to the new user now provided by Anker & Bamboo.

Posted by: @thejiral

The only thing the Mk3s is really missing in my opinion is something like Input shaper, which is not possible with the current electronic layout and firmware but should be integrated in one way or another in the next iteration I think. It really kills ghosting even at higher printing speeds (yes it does also leave some very minor artefacts which one can identify if looking just hard enough but you can always find something). This needs some redesign but not a radically more expensive design. 

sanding the PLA turns white.. It is hard to get the color back

Sanding goes alongside filling and painting.

Cheerio,

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @diem

sanding the PLA turns white.. It is hard to get the color back

Sanding goes alongside filling and painting.

You might add dipping to that list. I took a tip from the old plastic modelers and tried dipping parts in acrylic floor polish. Even with no other post-processing, it does a lot to smooth out the imperfections (never mind the trapped dog hair in the lower right corner).

RE:

Yeah.  I didn’t think sanding was an option for fixing small imperfections.. no way you are going to do ‘body work’ .. that’d be hours.. But I did find that a quick torch over the spot (after a spot filing) will remove some of the bright ‘whiteness’ and make it a bit better.. That is only a 2 second thing.

Posted by: @diem

sanding the PLA turns white.. It is hard to get the color back

Sanding goes alongside filling and painting.

Cheerio,

RE:

Posted by: @dave-f

Yes of course. I was never expecting perfect. I just expected similar or better surface quality than my much cheaper Bowen style machines from the mk3s.

For now I’ve been able to achieve that with the ender s1, and will move to the bambu lab x1 once it’s here in a few months. 

My honest opinion is that we're hitting the limits of FFF printing. I'm holding off on any big purchases for now since I don't have an urgent need. Squeezing hot filament off a wobbly spool through a tube via a complex mechanism doesn't strike me as a long term solution regardless of the manufacturer. These discussions remind me of the arguments over the best 24 pin dot matrix printers when lasers were right around the corner.

Obviously the mk3s is excellent when it comes to reliability, but is clear to me now from looking at the alternatives there’s better options if chasing print quality.

In your opinion, sure. But again, expect pushback on such blanket statements. Any FFF print is going to look like absolute crap when intentionally poorly lit and magnified. The same print at arm's length probably looks fine. Any skilled model maker is going to laugh at the idea of putting out plastic crap with no post processing (go check out some of the beauties in the hall of fame group), and if you really want smooth, you should be looking at altogether different technologies. In the meantime, people are putting out amazing prints using the Mk3 even with its shortcomings. Please don't tell them they aren't.

RE:

I rebuilt my Prusa Mini into a Mini Bear and have built the Mk3s Extruder R6/7.
I have to say that the original Mini produced much better walls than with the Mk3s extruder, on par with Dave's results. 
Seems my rebuild introduces 602 for me too. Since my parts are still pretty good, very consistent and dimensionally accurate, i'm ok with it. 
But it's there.

I might give another Extruder a try at some point, just for the fun.

I heard that there are extruders, like the LGX / BMG that have this issue less.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @thejiral

Maybe the Bambulab manages that but the reviews so far were a bit mixed on that, which is probably because most reviewers used the fast stock settings. What I would be interested in is how the X1 performs at speeds comparable to common Mk3s settings. Still, the Bambulab might be a better printer (if it can durably print in good quality in the long run) but it is certainly not a cheaper printer than the Mk3s.

 

Yeah so I finally got my X1CC. Quality is excellent, setup takes 15 mins, and printed flawlessly right out of the box. You don't even need to bother with manual Z level calibration, it just does it all for you. 

There is some ringing and a bit of x axis banding at the default speeds, but after you slow things down a *little* bit then quality is the best I've seen. You don't need to lose much in speed though, that box I was printing took 12 hours on the MK3S, but at the good quality speeds it's just over 4 hours on the X1 (vs say 3.5 at default speed).

Price wise the X1C + AMS is actually the same here in Australia as a fully assembled and delivered MK3s (around $2200).  I think Prusa either need a significant price drop on the MK3s, or hit it out of the park with the MK4 (hopefully including a redesigned and improved extruder), as there's just no reason to go the mk3 over the X1 as it stands right now.

So the claim other posters have made that we're 'hitting the limits' of FDM printing on the MK3 is just not true, the X1 is showing there's plenty of room for improvement.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @dave-f

 

Posted by: @thejiral

Maybe the Bambulab manages that but the reviews so far were a bit mixed on that, which is probably because most reviewers used the fast stock settings. What I would be interested in is how the X1 performs at speeds comparable to common Mk3s settings. Still, the Bambulab might be a better printer (if it can durably print in good quality in the long run) but it is certainly not a cheaper printer than the Mk3s.

 

Price wise the X1C + AMS is actually the same here in Australia as a fully assembled and delivered MK3s (around $2200).  I think Prusa either need a significant price drop on the MK3s, or hit it out of the park with the MK4 (hopefully including a redesigned and improved extruder), as there's just no reason to go the mk3 over the X1 as it stands right now.

So the claim other posters have made that we're 'hitting the limits' of FDM printing on the MK3 is just not true, the X1 is showing there's plenty of room for improvement.

 

You are overstating the need for Prusa to hit it out of the park.  People will still buy the Mk3S+.  Although I hope we see massive improvements with the MK4 or whatever they call it.

1. Bambulabs is not hurting Prusa:  It also does not have the same level of sales.  The last number I saw was less than 10K printers sold by Bambulabs.  Not to imply that this is not successful, but Prusa has sold well over 100K Mk3s in 2019 alone.  I would guess they have sold 100K or more Mk3S printers this year.  10K is not going to hurt Prusa, but it will help them innovate.  
2. The Bambu still does not have the same viable support network that Prusa has. Prusa has a rabid following that wants to help others, with hundreds of thousands of users lending a helping hand on Facebook, the forum, and face-to-face. Bambulabs might get there but is peanuts in comparison.  
3. Bambu is a closed system, and Prusa is Open Source.  This decision is a massive advantage for Prusa.  There are more development opportunities for other companies to improve on the design, which is why it has flourished so much.  

I plan to buy a Bambu.  I just think people are overstating the damage they are doing to Prusa.  It will take them 3-5 years to impact Prusa's sales significantly.  Even then, I suspect there will be the same hundreds of thousands of loyal users.  

RE:

Prusa seems to be crazy expensive in Australia if an assembled Mk3s amounts to 2200 USD. In Austria it is 1170 EUR (incl. taxes and shipping). That price is still ok I think in comparison. If speed is not the prime concern it should be quite on par with the Bambulab. With certain strengths and weaknesses compared to it. Print quality and self calibration are probably strenghtes of the Bambulab (next to the speed of course), but in the open design and modability the Prusa is certainly stronger. Regarding the reliability the jury is still out there. The Prusa is very durable, the Bambulab doesn't exist long enough yet to judge that.

I do agree that Prusa has to up its game also in the Mk3 class. In the coming years we need an Mk4, something like that show version rack based printer but for single desktop use: core xy and then also with input shaping. The XL is simply too large and expensive and not everyone wants that tool changer capabiliy (and pay for it) to be a replacement for the Mk3. I think it is very important as it brings something to the market where it will be possibly the best option for but if Prusa wants to stay relevant in its current main market the XL doesn't help.

I am wondering if Prusa maybe wants to move on to those other market as that i3 clone market is getting increasingly difficult with all that Chinese competition, but maybe the don't in which case we need an Mk4.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

PS: Prusa offers also its kit version and I think that is its greatest strength. Many people actually want the kit experience. This is a product sold a lot to hobbyists. There kit assembly is not a labour intense cost factor but actually part of the hobby and joy. You can get a sense of achievement if you assembled it all together and it starts printing flawlessly right after startup and first layer calibration. That is not on offer by either the cheap Chinese i3s or the Bambulab.

The kit version is 860 EUR in Austria (incl. taxes and shipping). That is in my view competitive for an absolute workhorse printer.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @thejiral

Prusa seems to be crazy expensive in Australia if an assembled Mk3s amounts to 2200 USD. In Austria it is 1170 EUR (incl. taxes and shipping). That price is still ok I think in comparison. If speed is not the prime concern it should be quite on par with the Bambulab. With certain strengths and weaknesses compared to it. Print quality and self calibration are probably strenghtes of the Bambulab (next to the speed of course), but in the open design and modability the Prusa is certainly stronger. Regarding the reliability the jury is still out there. The Prusa is very durable, the Bambulab doesn't exist long enough yet to judge that.

I do agree that Prusa has to up its game also in the Mk3 class. In the coming years we need an Mk4, something like that show version rack based printer but for single desktop use: core xy and then also with input shaping. The XL is simply too large and expensive and not everyone wants that tool changer capabiliy (and pay for it) to be a replacement for the Mk3. I think it is very important as it brings something to the market where it will be possibly the best option for but if Prusa wants to stay relevant in its current main market the XL doesn't help.

I am wondering if Prusa maybe wants to move on to those other market as that i3 clone market is getting increasingly difficult with all that Chinese competition, but maybe the don't in which case we need an Mk4.

I agree they need to improve the MK4 to fight of Chinese clones, but it is not as dire as most think.  Many use hat to deal with the the Chinese Army and GOV owned malls to buy printers (Gearbest and AliExpress).  

I am hoping they up the quality and add some new features to the MK4.  

 Posted by: @thejiral

PS: Prusa offers also its kit version and I think that is its greatest strength. Many people actually want the kit experience. This is a product sold a lot to hobbyists. There kit assembly is not a labour intense cost factor but actually part of the hobby and joy. You can get a sense of achievement if you assembled it all together and it starts printing flawlessly right after startup and first layer calibration. That is not on offer by either the cheap Chinese i3s or the Bambulab.

The kit version is 860 EUR in Austria (incl. taxes and shipping). That is in my view competitive for an absolute workhorse printer.

I 100% agree.  They key is a joy to build and is exceptionally simple.  It teaches you how to maintain the printer and how to to replace parts.  

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

One reason I got the kit was so I would know the machine inside, outside, over, under, sideways, and down.  I am very glad I did.

I also know that it was assembled carefully, by someone not under time or quota pressure, that all screws are tight, etc.

Posted by: @thejiral

PS: Prusa offers also its kit version and I think that is its greatest strength. Many people actually want the kit experience. This is a product sold a lot to hobbyists. There kit assembly is not a labour intense cost factor but actually part of the hobby and joy. You can get a sense of achievement if you assembled it all together and it starts printing flawlessly right after startup and first layer calibration. That is not on offer by either the cheap Chinese i3s or the Bambulab.

The kit version is 860 EUR in Austria (incl. taxes and shipping). That is in my view competitive for an absolute workhorse printer.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

One reason I got the kit was so I would know the machine inside, outside, over, under, sideways, and down.  I am very glad I did.

I also know that it was assembled carefully, by someone not under time or quota pressure, that all screws are tight, etc.

+1 - exactly the reasons I bought the kit.

RE:

Posted by: @cwbullet 

You are overstating the need for Prusa to hit it out of the park.  People will still buy the Mk3S+.  Although I hope we see massive improvements with the MK4 or whatever they call it.

Yeah I'm definitely not implying Prusa's sales are going to stop overnight. Even Nokia & Blackberry were around for a long time after the iPhone was released 😛

Posted by: @cwbullet

The Bambu still does not have the same viable support network that Prusa has.

The community is certainly not as big, as you say only a product like the MK3S with the benefit of time in the market can manage to grow such a large community, and that definitely is a big asset.   Though for what it's worth there is a very active Discord and Facebook group for the Bambu and is growing daily. But yeah, support takes longer and there's no 24/7 chat. 

So while I agree and I don't think Bambu are directly hurting Prusa today, I guess overtime there's does become a bit of a mindshare question and how that impacts things you've mentioned are important there (like community etc). Even recently Bambu X1 has been announced as one of the best inventions in 2022 by Time, so there's definitely a spotlight on it at the moment. So I guess time will tell to see how things shake out.

Posted by: @cwbullet

Bambu is a closed system, and Prusa is Open Source.

Think the history of Open Source has shown it's a very useful approach if you want a product to be customisable, and to allow people to clone and remix their own versions etc, but not necessarily if you want the best and most cohesive product experience. There's a lot you give up to make something extensible. People love Linux because it's free and hackable (I also used to build my own kernel back in the day), but of course will never reach the mainstream like macOS or iOS has as there's compromises that come with designing something is easily modified and extensible for most people.

I understand the MK3S / Prusa has had it's roots in more of the hacker mindset. Which is why current Prusa users value things like putting it together themselves, tinkering, and it being open source. Which is great if you're looking for a 'project' to invest time in, but obviously Bambu labs isn't trying to appeal to those people.

I'd see it more for the people who just wants to produce the best 3d prints as easy as possible without needing to spend time building, calibrating and manually z levelling etc. For the mainstream,  having a product you can unbox and be printing within 15 minutes is such a revolution in my opinion.

The 10 - 20 hours you save in building the machine you can just put into learning about how it works, best slicer settings, how to maintain it etc. 

Posted by: @thejiral

Prusa seems to be crazy expensive in Australia if an assembled Mk3s amounts to 2200 USD.

$2200 AUD, not USD. That's for an assembled MK3S after all taxes etc delivered. 

Specifically the total for MK3S was $2,199 AUD, and the X1C + AMS was $2,198.90 AUD.

Posted by: @thejiral

That price is still ok I think in comparison. If speed is not the prime concern it should be quite on par with the Bambulab.

Speed is one thing (which is a massive feature in of itself), but you're also getting multi material, enclosure, camera, wifi / cloud connectivity etc. All which add quite a lot of cost if you're trying to add that to the MK3S.

I'm not saying the MK3s should have these things, just that if the MK3S was half the price, it would all make more sense, and maybe 5 years ago it did. But just feels like things have changed and is open source and being able to build yourself worth such a big premium over giving up all those other features ?

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

I would say that the MK3S is worth your time.  I would buy the kit.  The 6-8 hours of building is worth the investment.  

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

Posted by: @dave-f

 Posted by: @thejiral

Prusa seems to be crazy expensive in Australia if an assembled Mk3s amounts to 2200 USD.

$2200 AUD, not USD. That's for an assembled MK3S after all taxes etc delivered. 

Specifically the total for MK3S was $2,199 AUD, and the X1C + AMS was $2,198.90 AUD.

Posted by: @thejiral

That price is still ok I think in comparison. If speed is not the prime concern it should be quite on par with the Bambulab.

Speed is one thing (which is a massive feature in of itself), but you're also getting multi material, enclosure, camera, wifi / cloud connectivity etc. All which add quite a lot of cost if you're trying to add that to the MK3S.

I'm not saying the MK3s should have these things, just that if the MK3S was half the price, it would all make more sense, and maybe 5 years ago it did. But just feels like things have changed and is open source and being able to build yourself worth such a big premium over giving up all those other features ?

 

2200 AUD in Australia is still more than 20% more expensive than in Europe (1170 EUR incl. taxes + shipping). 
The Bambulab x1c without AMS costs 1356 EUR (incl. tax without shipping). A good deal for sure, you get a lot of features which you don't with a Prusa, but not cheaper than the Prusa Mk3s+ even pre-assembled. The Bambulab x1c is also more than 60% more expensive than the kit version of the Mk3s+. For those actually enjoying a kit experience that is a big argument. So I disagree with your claim that one is paying a premium for building it oneself. 

Of all features of the Bambulab I consider the multimaterial capability the least important one. You get that for the Prusa as well for 300 EUR extra. Fairly comparable overall. From what I have heard the AMS is also quite temperamental, as every single nozzle, filament changer system is that I know. There might be quite a few people out there who value camera and cloud too. I don't and I think you'll find people from both sides out there in large numbers. Actually I strongly dislike cloud capabilities, especially if they are forced upon you (privacy, data security etc). 

The big points in favour of the Bambulab is IMHO, speed, print quality at max quality speeds, enclosure, part cooling, core xy mechanism, input shaping and other autocalibration features. That's why it is worth the extra price compared to the Mk3s+.

For me the closed system is speaking against the Bambulab, it makes you more reliant on the company in case they stop catering for the product but I understand others don't care about that, especially in the market Bambulab is targeting. 

The big question mark out there is how reliable the Bambulab will be in the long term. We can only make educated guess about that so far, based on the design but not on long term experience. Will it mach the long term reliabilty of the Prusa or will it give in faster ? I think that might be the most important factor on how much of a true competition it will be. 

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

If the X1C is as good as the spec, then surely its a nobrainer? even cheaper if you don't believe the AMS is any better than the MMS.

RE: Should I persist with the MKS3+ ?

To late to edit.

If I read their site correctly you can't buy a X1C without the AMS, pity.