Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I like breakaway supports when they work. However, try this https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1020185  i tried full supports. It was a disaster. Then I tried supports only on build plate. Better but still bad. Finally I printed on a Stratasys using SR-30 dissolvable supports and got a good print. For a competition, my students did a clock mechanism in Solidworks. A single print and everything worked. It took 24 hours to make sure all of the support dissolved but it was impressive. You are correct that these aren’t the major use cases. Still, there are things that can’t be printed any other way. Having the option also frees you to do fragile structures without worrying that support removal will break things. Some 3D printing technologies are self supporting which is interesting. I hope I am around in 20 years to see where this all leads. 

my X1C arrives at school next week. I get to experience the pain of it not having either a USB-A nor an Ethernet port. I hate dealing with MicroSD cards. The county doesn’t allow printers of any type to connect via WiFi. I have hooked up a small WiFi router and generated my own local network. However, it won’t be able to get to the internet which will limit things. Firmware updates will be a pain. I haven’t used LAN mode before so I’ll have to see what other limitations I run into. If the machine just had an Ethernet port this wouldn’t be an issue. 

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I like my X1Cs and P1P but do not see them as a Prusa Killer.  Although I suspect they have sold a lot of printers, I do not think they have sold the 350K Prusa has averaged over the last several years.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

You’d need to compare quarter by quarter (or at least yearly) sales and then wait another year to really see how things are going. Past numbers don’t always predict future sales. I’d like to know how many printers Bambulabs has sold in the past 6 months.. If you look at a company like Apple, it has its hands in many products.. phones, iCloud, desktop, tablets.. but each has its own design team. I think Prusa has been quite inefficient in hardware design over the pandemic period if you compare them to current 3D companies. It appears they chose to expand their web services at the expense of development of the next iteration of the MK3 or a new home product based on corexy (and perhaps klipper).  They likely also need something with a 300mm plate for those doing small farms. The delays seem to indicate they just don’t have enough in-house expertise to properly maintain their existing products and develop new offerings. I read about hardware problems of the MMU2s, slow firmware updates (mini-buddy) or lack of testing (MK3 firmware with revo) as a company that has strained resources.

Just in this small town, we are purchasing 3 X1Cs where only 1 year ago they would have been a Prusa, so Bambulabs must be cutting into potential Prusa sales. However, maybe Prusa could not fill the full worldwide demand anyway. I think the big thing that must weigh heavily on Jo’s mind now must be that the XL needs to be a solid offering right out of the gate.. And you really never know those things until it gets into the hands of hundreds. 

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

Posted by: @crab

You’d need to compare quarter by quarter (or at least yearly) sales and then wait another year to really see how things are going. Past numbers don’t always predict future sales. I’d like to know how many printers Bambulabs has sold in the past 6 months.. If you look at a company like Apple, it has its hands in many products.. phones, iCloud, desktop, tablets.. but each has its own design team. I think Prusa has been quite inefficient in hardware design over the pandemic period if you compare them to current 3D companies. It appears they chose to expand their web services at the expense of development of the next iteration of the MK3 or a new home product based on corexy (and perhaps klipper).  They likely also need something with a 300mm plate for those doing small farms. The delays seem to indicate they just don’t have enough in-house expertise to properly maintain their existing products and develop new offerings. I read about hardware problems of the MMU2s, slow firmware updates (mini-buddy) or lack of testing (MK3 firmware with revo) as a company that has strained resources.

Just in this small town, we are purchasing 3 X1Cs where only 1 year ago they would have been a Prusa, so Bambulabs must be cutting into potential Prusa sales. However, maybe Prusa could not fill the full worldwide demand anyway. I think the big thing that must weigh heavily on Jo’s mind now must be that the XL needs to be a solid offering right out of the gate.. And you really never know those things until it gets into the hands of hundreds. 

That is conjecture based on an N of 1.  There is no data to base any of your statements on.  

RE:

That is a really excellent analysis.  I think its important to note Bambu has raised 13 million dollars in investment which is not really a lot of money, but depending how they use it they can buy a lot of market share especially if they are selling close to cost.  I think Prusa has huge margins and lower overhead (less employees). By basing everything out of the Czech Republic they can easily control everything including costs. If competition gets tough I could see Prusa dropping their margins (and probably their customer support) way down, but if they DON'T rapidly release stable innovative features and  breakthroughs, they may become the high quality version of Creality with Bambu becoming the bleeding edge high end prosumer product line probably with a slight price increase.

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I think that is his point. The "lack of data" from Prusa is telling. When was the last time Prusa released a new printer. The incremental iterations of the Mini and MK3 don't count as new printers, they are "mid-life updates". Nothing revolutionary, no major new offering. The MK3 is an almost a six year old platform! The latest rev, MK3S+ was released 2.5 years ago. 

They announced the XL multitool printer in November 2021, but that has yet to see the light of day. It was originally due to release in March 2022 and now it's Q3-Q4 of 2023. It will ship eventually no doubt. One could ask if this was a wise roadmap decision to release such an expensive printer which will have limited market penetration compared to what Prusa has been used to. An assembled, two head system will cost $3000! Way over priced off you ask me. You can easily buy an IDEX printer, even with an enclosure, for significantly less money. Heck, you can buy the E3 Toolchanger with 4 tool heads for $2600 and it's an all metal frame construction.

So, why has so little come out of Prusa in terms of new hardware ? Limited staffing, skillset mix of the engineering staff(I am not saying they aren't good engineers, but they may not have developers with skill to tackle more advanced mechanics analysis and automated calibration like Bambu), setbacks in the development process, ability to manage their supply chain, focus on web/printables, financial limitations, they lost focus when they acquired that delta printer company ? spread too thin by offering printers, software AND filaments ?  . ... any of these are possible. We can't know which it is, but it is something.

Posted by: @cwbullet

 

Posted by: @crab

You’d need to compare quarter by quarter (or at least yearly) sales and then wait another year to really see how things are going. Past numbers don’t always predict future sales. I’d like to know how many printers Bambulabs has sold in the past 6 months.. If you look at a company like Apple, it has its hands in many products.. phones, iCloud, desktop, tablets.. but each has its own design team. I think Prusa has been quite inefficient in hardware design over the pandemic period if you compare them to current 3D companies. It appears they chose to expand their web services at the expense of development of the next iteration of the MK3 or a new home product based on corexy (and perhaps klipper).  They likely also need something with a 300mm plate for those doing small farms. The delays seem to indicate they just don’t have enough in-house expertise to properly maintain their existing products and develop new offerings. I read about hardware problems of the MMU2s, slow firmware updates (mini-buddy) or lack of testing (MK3 firmware with revo) as a company that has strained resources.

Just in this small town, we are purchasing 3 X1Cs where only 1 year ago they would have been a Prusa, so Bambulabs must be cutting into potential Prusa sales. However, maybe Prusa could not fill the full worldwide demand anyway. I think the big thing that must weigh heavily on Jo’s mind now must be that the XL needs to be a solid offering right out of the gate.. And you really never know those things until it gets into the hands of hundreds. 

That is conjecture based on an N of 1.  There is no data to base any of your statements on.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

There are quite a few data points 

- Delays of the XL of over a year.
- Developement of a CoreXY farm printer over 2 years ago that has not come to market
- very slow updates on Mini connectivity firmware
- lack of iteration of the MK3s+ since Nov 2020
+ development of enclosure for MK3S
- no MK4 on the horizon
- Bambu's (and Anker, Creality, etc) development of new products even with the pandemic and constrained supply

I'm not sure how that all gets interpreted is entirely conjecture.. usually the businesses that I've worked in that had those types of issues (electronic product development) all had similar reasons.. But no one knows exact details.

But, I really like what Prusa has done.. The MK3S machine I have is very nice. I am hoping they can weather the storm of new competition. I do think they might need to increase their technical expertise resources so that they can do more parallel support and development. 

Posted by: @cwbullet

That is conjecture based on an N of 1.  There is no data to base any of your statements on.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

If you all are that unhappy, move along.  I am sure there will be plenty of Loyal Prusa users left.  

Posted by: @pmageau

I think that is his point. The "lack of data" from Prusa is telling. When was the last time Prusa released a new printer. The incremental iterations of the Mini and MK3 don't count as new printers, they are "mid-life updates". Nothing revolutionary, no major new offering. The MK3 is an almost a six year old platform! The latest rev, MK3S+ was released 2.5 years ago. 

They announced the XL multitool printer in November 2021, but that has yet to see the light of day. It was originally due to release in March 2022 and now it's Q3-Q4 of 2023. It will ship eventually no doubt. One could ask if this was a wise roadmap decision to release such an expensive printer which will have limited market penetration compared to what Prusa has been used to. An assembled, two head system will cost $3000! Way over priced off you ask me. You can easily buy an IDEX printer, even with an enclosure, for significantly less money. Heck, you can buy the E3 Toolchanger with 4 tool heads for $2600 and it's an all metal frame construction.

So, why has so little come out of Prusa in terms of new hardware ? Limited staffing, skillset mix of the engineering staff(I am not saying they aren't good engineers, but they may not have developers with skill to tackle more advanced mechanics analysis and automated calibration like Bambu), setbacks in the development process, ability to manage their supply chain, focus on web/printables, financial limitations, they lost focus when they acquired that delta printer company ? spread too thin by offering printers, software AND filaments ?  . ... any of these are possible. We can't know which it is, but it is something.

Posted by: @cwbullet

 

Posted by: @crab

You’d need to compare quarter by quarter (or at least yearly) sales and then wait another year to really see how things are going. Past numbers don’t always predict future sales. I’d like to know how many printers Bambulabs has sold in the past 6 months.. If you look at a company like Apple, it has its hands in many products.. phones, iCloud, desktop, tablets.. but each has its own design team. I think Prusa has been quite inefficient in hardware design over the pandemic period if you compare them to current 3D companies. It appears they chose to expand their web services at the expense of development of the next iteration of the MK3 or a new home product based on corexy (and perhaps klipper).  They likely also need something with a 300mm plate for those doing small farms. The delays seem to indicate they just don’t have enough in-house expertise to properly maintain their existing products and develop new offerings. I read about hardware problems of the MMU2s, slow firmware updates (mini-buddy) or lack of testing (MK3 firmware with revo) as a company that has strained resources.

Just in this small town, we are purchasing 3 X1Cs where only 1 year ago they would have been a Prusa, so Bambulabs must be cutting into potential Prusa sales. However, maybe Prusa could not fill the full worldwide demand anyway. I think the big thing that must weigh heavily on Jo’s mind now must be that the XL needs to be a solid offering right out of the gate.. And you really never know those things until it gets into the hands of hundreds. 

That is conjecture based on an N of 1.  There is no data to base any of your statements on.  

 

Posted by: @crab

There are quite a few data points 

- Delays of the XL of over a year.
- Developement of a CoreXY farm printer over 2 years ago that has not come to market
- very slow updates on Mini connectivity firmware
- lack of iteration of the MK3s+ since Nov 2020
+ development of enclosure for MK3S
- no MK4 on the horizon
- Bambu's (and Anker, Creality, etc) development of new products even with the pandemic and constrained supply

I'm not sure how that all gets interpreted is entirely conjecture.. usually the businesses that I've worked in that had those types of issues (electronic product development) all had similar reasons.. But no one knows exact details.

But, I really like what Prusa has done.. The MK3S machine I have is very nice. I am hoping they can weather the storm of new competition. I do think they might need to increase their technical expertise resources so that they can do more parallel support and development. 

Posted by: @cwbullet

 

 

That is conjecture based on an N of 1.  There is no data to base any of your statements on.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

A lot of you are very upset with Prusa and some have moved to Bambu but you still come here.  You cannot change the company.  Your expectations come from within.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I mean, it is what it is. This thread was halfway interesting in the beginning (even though I still feel it kinda missed the point by comparing the X1C with the XL instead of the Mk3S+MMU) but it's beginning to feel like people are flogging a dead horse.

Prusa will ship the XL at some point, and hopefully it'll work as advertised. Maybe not. How much Bambulab has eaten into Prusa's business, nobody knows but Prusa. Maybe this is the moment that defines a future Harvard Business School case study where a market leader managed to miss the mark, was pushed aside by an aggressive newcomer, and became an also-ran. Or a case study of supply chain mismanagement. Or maybe one of astutely expanding into a niche but high margin new area, while squeezing the max out of the current, aging product line. I have no idea, and neither has anyone else. What I *do* know though is that this will not be a case study on creating and executing a highly successful product launch strategy and optimizing customer communication…

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I am not at all unhappy at all with Prusa but I think Bambu is creating some really innovative technology.  I am on Prusa's forum not to bad mouth or criticize him/them but to participate in a dialogue of what is important to me as a consumer of 3D printing resources.  If Prusa is smart which I am sure he and his staff are, they are monitoring these forums to keep their finger on the pulse of what customers want and expect from a leading manufacturer in 3D printing technology.

I also want to say I am a diehard capitalist and therefore my loyalty is to my own self centered needs and desires I don't have any loyalty to a particular manufacturer. I do have tremendous respect for what Prusa has done delivering a top quality product with top quality support but if tomorrow someone provides a better product at a better price I will probably move one. That's  how capitalism works. Though I have a feeling Prusa recognizes the competition and probably has a very good idea as to what it has to do in the near future to stay relevant.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

Posted by: @paul-hodara

I am not at all unhappy at all with Prusa but I think Bambu is creating some really innovative technology.  

I 100% agree with this statement.  

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

Soo this forum is for prusa lovers only? I own Prusa printers and i'm satisfied with them (expect mmu2s) but i'm not a die hard prusa lover that advise other to leave prusa if they don't like it. I voice my frustration sometimes to this forum and in the comments section under their blogs, to either vend a bit or hope that somebody sees this, or travel to his/hers ear and take it in to account. Not all of us that post "negatively" (i say constructively) in this forum, hate or dislike prusa and their printers and looking for an excuse to ditch them. Personally i wouldn't like to see prusa to loose customers or stop making printers (extreme scenarios) but i would like to voice my disappointment about their poor handling on this thing (and others before that) even if their no one taking it in to actual account. I think the delivery problems became for them the golden excuse and they are in danger to becoming like they little boy that cried wolf all the time. A year after their estimated shipping time (which im sure wasnt strict in the first place) and still minimal to scarce communications and updates just blew over any excuses from their part. Are the  supply chain problems real? Yes. But also they are real for BL and a dozen other companies. I'll cancel my order? Probably not for the time being. Will I if another ready made toolchanger comes from another company (with some positive background)? Maybe, maybe not. Next time will i believe Prusa about their workflows and products? Probably not. Will i stop voicing my opinion? NOT

And to answer in the same spirit you did... If you don't like criticism about prusa move along to other posts.

Posted by: @cwbullet

If you all are that unhappy, move along.  I am sure there will be plenty of Loyal Prusa users left.  

 

 

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

My feelings exactly.

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

Cool!  

If there is a future upgrade to the AMS, I do hope that it is backward compatible, and not like Creality, where they come out with a completely different printer. 

Posted by: @rickm

 

Posted by: @iftibashir

 

Posted by: @dimprov

So, setting TPU aside, can the AMS help combine all the other filament types together?  From what I've been reading, it seems to work pretty well generally, and certainly for filaments of the same type.  I've never done disolvable supports before, but even just that alone seems like a worthwhile capability to have on hand.

From what I read you can mix filament types - as PETG and PLA, for example, do not adhere to each other very well so you can print a PETG model using PLA supports, or vice versa, and hence result in a cleaner print. Dissolvable should work in the same way. It’s just TPU that can’t run through the AMS due to its flexibility. 

I actually finally got around to testing this today on the AMS. I used PETG as support for a test PLA print and it worked well. It probably slowed the print down by a couple of minutes for the temperature changes but it was pretty minimal. All I did was a benchy tipped on an angle with tree supports and it popped right off after cooling down.

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I can't imagine any other company following Creality's model. I count at least 15 models of 3D printers. I also can't imagine the inventory that must take for parts.

Posted by: @dimprov

Cool!  

If there is a future upgrade to the AMS, I do hope that it is backward compatible, and not like Creality, where they come out with a completely different printer. 

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I am also considering if I should stick with Prusa or go to Bambu Lab to upgrade my Prusa Mini. I am not even decided if I should go to BL P1P, X1C or Prusa MK3S or XL. Still evaluating my needs and how much I want to pay. However I am glad that Bambu lab started competitiveness in area where Prusa so far dominated and stagnated. Hope that Prusa will not end up as Nokia in mobile phone segment.

Prusa +

- For me as someone from EU I got cheap shipping with Prusa. Also BL shows prices without VAT, so when you are comparing prices, add 20% to BL price. Price of MK3s kit for me equals approximately to BL P1P price.

- oposite to BL, Prusa printers are silent. As someone who will have printer in office room in small flat with baby, this is significant plus. There can be done some measurements to lower noise of BL printers, but it will be still significant limitation.

- I don't need fast speeds. I have mainly printer as a tool, not hobby. I can wait a few hours if it prints reliably.

- with fast speeds I have concerns about layer adhesion. I am printing a lot of practical things from PETG, so I want to have prints with best strength and quality.

- dont mind much smart functions of BL printers. Octoprint and cheap Xiaomi cammera gives me more smart functions.  I am taking advantage also of Octoprint API in my smart home implementations.

- Even there are a lot of possitive reviews about BL printers quality, there started to pop up some issues. For example recent BL printers have issues with warped bed. This is also the reason why for Prusa it took a lot of time to create reliable supply chain. It is not hard to make a few good quality printers. Biggest challenge is scale up quality with tens of thousands products. I have less concerns about Prusa quality.

Bambu Lab +

- Biggest selling point for Bambulab is its form factor. 256x256 mm is by my opinion best print size you want. Not too low, not too much. With printer size 350x350x470 this is very space effective printer compared with Prusa printers. I plan to have printer on my bench desk, so every saved space is precious for me.

- Enclosed/easy to enclose printer. Even I plan to print mainly with PLA/PETG, having enclosed printers give a lot of possitive effects.

- AMS looks very reliable. Even if you don't plan to do many multi-material prints, have option to comfortably pick one of 4 fully enclosed filaments looks very practical.

- Even I don't like closed architecture of BL, what I read, Bambu Lab employs 200 engineers. I am not affraid that this company will fade in near future. Looks like their success and high engagement will keep them on marked long enough time.

I will probably wait for reviews if Prusa XL justifies its price and size. If not, I will probably decide between MK3S+ and P1P with AMS. Or got crazy idea to replace board and hot end on P1P to make it silent and open source, but not sure if I will have enough time on this.

Its a shame that for last years Prusa didn't work on successor of i3 MK product line. Something between MK3S and XL.

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I can't stand Creality's business model, but it is not as bad as Anycubic.  Creality produces lots of models and sells in large numbers and has quite a few lemons.  They do take returns, but it is hard to get support.  On the plus, it is easy to get replacement parts,

Anycubic has fewer models and a little better support but they discontinue models every 2-3 years and it is near to impossible to get parts after that because it has been discontinued.  I have a predator that needs parts, but I cannot buy them.  

Posted by: @crab

I can't imagine any other company following Creality's model. I count at least 15 models of 3D printers. I also can't imagine the inventory that must take for parts.

Posted by: @dimprov

Cool!  

If there is a future upgrade to the AMS, I do hope that it is backward compatible, and not like Creality, where they come out with a completely different printer. 

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

I don't need fast speeds. I have mainly printer as a tool, not hobby. I can wait a few hours if it prints reliably.

oposite to BL, Prusa printers are silent. As someone who will have printer in office room in small flat with baby,

I admit i am biased towards Prusa, but there are good reasons. My Mk3S has printed thousands of hours without serious problems. One bad bearing and one thermistor were replaced during warranty.

Despite the Bambu hype, you cannot buy second hand MK3S printers for a reasonable price in Germany.
They are mostly offered at prices a little below a new Prusa Kit.

On the opposite, some people sell their X1C printers and advertise them with arguments like "this one has no failures".
Example from german "ebay-kleinanzeigen.de" below. 

Consider buying a MK3S+ if your Mini is not sufficient. It will keep its value and be upgradeable later. 

Feel free to translate this with google translator:

Hallo,Verkaufe durch zu seltener Nutzung meinen Carbon mit Ams aus Dezember. Es handelt sich nicht um die Fehlerhaften Kickstarter modelle und auch das Druckbett ist gerade. Es handelt sich um die aktuelle generation inkl der generation 3 Ams, sprich aich hier keine Probleme.Diese Drucker ist von den Kinderkrankheiten nicht betroffen und liefert jedes mal 100%. Da ich noch andere Drucker besitze und diese auch viel nutze, steht der x1c nur viel herum. Selbst auf dem Display ist die Werksseitige Schutzfolie noch drauf. Die Druckplatte hat noch nicht viel gesehen und schaut auch dementsprechend sehr gut aus.

Versand möglich für 17.99

Dabei gehören:2x coolplate ersatz stückeErsatz nozzleblock 0.4mm

Bitte erspart mir 1000 Euro Anfragen.Der Preis steht und geht auch nicht runnter.

Bedenkt dass die aktuelle Charge mit Fehlern behaftet ist wie krumme Druckbetten/lager usw.

Nun viel Spaß und ich freue mich auf eure Nachrichten.

RE: Prusa MK3S+ vs Bambu Lab X1 carbon

Let me throw my worthless $0.02 in there on this beat to death topic:

There are 2 types of people / businesses. There are the ones that want to open a box and just click a few buttons and go. Then there are those that want to evaluate and refine their experience. There are Mustang owners that get in and drive and love the experience and there are those that make modifications to either run a 10second quarter mile or hit the turns at ridiculous speeds. Both lead to an individual experience.

PSA finished:
The X1C is not going to remain closed source. Someone will eventually hack and mod it and it will become a platform like all the rest. None of you will remember, but the XYZ Davinci was a closed source design with chipped filament boxes, same with the Zortrax and those were hacked. I have 5 machines, a XYZ Davinci 1.0A ,a Type A Machines Series 1, a Flash Forge Dreamer, an original Prusa i2 and a Mendel Max 3.0 (all purchased used dirt cheap). All of my machines are heavily modded and all of them have Revo hot ends, yet my i2 delivers the best and most accurate print quality, followed by my XYZ. I typically make engineering parts so I need dimensional accuracy and mechanical properties over speed (as good as FDM can get). I am not a personal fan of bed slingers, but when the time is taken to tune them, they deliver fantastic results. 

IMO, the Bambu printers are all hype over speed, bells and whistles. The 900HP Supra gets a lot of attention at the car show, but it is not anywhere near as reliable as the Corolla. I do agree that Prusa needs to step into improved technology, but there is no way a closed source design will take them down. Closed source means rising prices and limited access / bottle necks to parts. Look at how Simplify 3D died over the years, and that was 100% because they refuse to release the source so the community can improve it. I feel that once the hype is high and the profits are made, the quality will drop and people will be fighting over support and spare parts. 

My final thoughts are this:
If you are a non-technical person and do not understand software and wiring, you should go with closed source.

If you are handy and technical, an open source design will give you full control to have the machine suit your direct needs with the required quality and accuracy. I would put my ancient i2 up against the X1C any day printing clock gears from PLA and most likely win the dimensional and quality contest. What the hell do I need Lidar for if my bed is within .1mm flatness and my first layer is perfectly tuned? Bambu would have to send me a P1P and it would have to best my i2 to make me a believer.