RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
[...] It's quite evident that you got a bad one and I got a good one, so the variable here appears to be the batch from the manufacturer.
That's what I was thinking. I was hoping Prusa would bird dog some of this and figure it out. Are people with Mini textured sheets experiencing the same variability? Who knows, maybe even environmental conditions on a particular day figure into it.
You getting a bad one is verified since you immediately had good prints with TheKKIINNG (I get almost weekly spams from Amazon as 'something I might like', but I don't need it right now).
It's a good Plan B. I'm no fan of the company. They apparently treated people ordering v1-2 very poorly, but they did figure it out. I just needed one quick.
It appears that some sheets are definitely good and some are definitely bad.
I use the textured sheet when I want that unique finish that they give, but normally I use the smooth sheet.
The good ol' smooth PEI is amazingly versatile. I keep coming back to it myself.
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
I just received a power-coated bed from Prusa. I had bought a used MK3 printer last year, and the smoot sheet it came with is getting a bit worn, so I'd figure I'd give it a try since I've heard good things about.
About the only thing I've been able to print 100% is a 20mm test cube. PLA and ABS both lifted/warped, failing the print. I've cleaned it with soap/water and then ISO and that seemed to help. Lowered the Live Z from ~0.65 something to ~1.025 and that helped more, but still no good.
Then i figured based on this thread, PETG was probably my best bet. It made it the furthest, but one of 4 parts on the bed eventually broke free around 20mm or so. I'm about to give up on this thing.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
The powder-coated textured sheet is most definitely more tricky to print on than the smooth sheet.
I think the important part is to do a separate Z calibration for the new textured sheet, and you will find that the Z fudge factor will be much lower (more negative, closer to the plate) for the textured sheet.
I would suggest switching your bed leveling to 7x7 and five samples, if you have not done so already and following that with a good detailed Z calibration using one of those thin calibration prints, such as the 3 by three squares. (The image I'm showing below is on the smooth sheet, to illustrate the test print I'm talking about, but the print on the textured sheet should be very similar.)
There's some anecdotal evidence here that some of the textured sheets from Prusa and third parties have uneven coating, and that the advanced bed level correction shown here may help with this: https://www.help.prusa3d.com/en/article/bed-level-correction_2267
Some also claim that the textured sheets (as well as the smooth sheets) work better when 'aged', kind of like a skillet or BBQ grill.
On the textured sheet I have, I've found that ABS and PETg will stick without any help and PLA will in many cases, but for small footprints, support footings you may need something like a glue stick or the Layerneer Bed Weld adhesive. For large rectangular PLA prints, I've been doing a swipe of the glue stick, and now since I've discovered it, the Bed Weld, right where the corners of the print will end up, as those seem to be the most likely to have adhesion issues.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Clean bed with dish soap, no alcohol needed. Clean a few times, new sheet stick not as good.
First layer calibration shoot be 100%, with a powder coated sheet , it could be that you need to go lower then a pei sheet.
The above 2 are very important(for sticking to the bed), always check this before printing, first layer check, if you start printing, check the first lines, then wen first layer is ready, check the whole first layer, you can see if it is sticking or releasing on some parts.
If it is still not works:
First layer more heat in extruder, 5 or 10 C higher.
Bed temperature higher.
If still not working, first layer slower.(normally not needed).
Small parts or big flat parts or a square part, you may need a big brim with 6 or 8 lines attach to model, and use glue stick, parts can warp or fall/release from bed.
Also check your printer if the nozzle/extruder is not hitting on the model, if some points on model are to high it can hit the model or if some bolts on printer are loose on the printer(check the whole printer for loose bolts).
Here's how to calibrate:
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
We may be drifting away a bit from the topic of the powder coated bed, but let me add one finding to the 1st layer calibration procedure. The other day it was purely incidental that I had clear PETG loaded, when I tried to work on my 1st layer calibration. I can tell you that from now on, this is exactly what I will do in the future! It is ultra easy to see on clear PETG if your layer height is exactly correct or not. If you get a glass-clear first layer, with invisible nozzle lines, then your 1st layer is absolutely correct. A bit too low and your layer gets glossy on the surface and a bit too high and you see the individual nozzle lines. So I do basically what is shown in the video, but the trick is to use clear PETG instead of colored material.
At the risk of repeating myself: If your powder coated bed does not work anymore with PETG, wash it with dish washing agent and a sponge for a minute, then dry it of immediately and completely with paper towels. I have to do that about every one to two month, despite wiping the surface with isopropanol wipes before every print. The result of that washing has never failed to satisfy me, even small PETG parts stick well again.
PLA has never worked for me on the powder coated sheet without using the glue stick. For me the solution was very simple:
- For PETG I always use the powder coated sheet. I never have to take it off, as the parts come of completely by themselves once the bed temperature has dropped. I just have to take them away, no matter how big they are.
- For PLA I always use the flat sheet, which I have to flex a bit to get the parts off after printing. But I never ever have to use glue stick or other messy bed coatings.
Happy printing!
Herbert
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
My Powder coated sheet worked great in the beginning. But after +- 50 prints (using both sides) it started wearing off both sides and PLA didn't stick much anymore. With bigger prints it's usually still fine, but everytime it's a gamble because parts can just as easily pop loose, ruining your whole print. Always treated it with 99,9% pure IPA.
Since that didn't work anymore, I did the soapy with hot water and that worked, but just for a few prints, which increases sheet management and makes the solution a bit unnecessary to keep using it.
I do however still use it with some some other materials. I have for example the FormFutura Stonefill which destroys your PEI sheet (they really should instruct this more clearly, it already destroyed 2 PEI sheets for me, so quite expensive stuff), but it works great on the powder coated sheet. For PETG as well.
But for PLA, I guess the conclusion by now should be: use the flat PEI sheet and forget about the powder coated sheet unless you don't mind washing it every time and even then may run into problems still. And also the PEI sheet goes on for 6 - 12 months max (worn off both sides) here. So include that in your costs calculation 🙂
There doesn't seem to be a more durable solution that offers the same user friendliness I guess. Even TheKINGGGG sheets i've read mixed stories about and isn't available here in Europe anyway. Maybe I should try out BuildTak some time, but it's quite expensive stuff.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
@appie-d
It could also be the filament that is not 100% quality.
Is your first layer 100%, so it can stick good.
Clean bed(powder coated sheet) a few times with concentrated dish soap, with hot water.
All needs te be 100%.
If there are other things that are not good like filament you also can do:
First layer slower,
first layer hotter,
Bed hotter.
Small objects and big flat objects I would use glue stick.
Also think of cold air hitting printer, cold filament, cold room printing? Possible print hotter?
Heat up the bed for longer time before you start printing(cold weather).
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
I appreciate the suggestions. I'm using A-brand filament like Prusament, Filamentum, FormFutura, Innofil3D (BASF) etc ...
Soap washing helps but seems to loose it's effect over time as well (like 1 or 2 prints and repeat). And for my usually smaller prints washing it everytime makes me just want to use the PEI instead 😉 There's just no way I can make PLA stick to the powder coated sheet anymore like i used to. I can get it done after a lot of tweaking like you said and for a part hoping this time it'll stick, but that's not a very efficient way of doing things. Glue stick helps of course, but that's beyond the point 😉 (Hair)spray works too. The hype was that this powder coated sheet was going to solve all our problems, but it's not. It's just another way to do things and add texture to your first layer. It's great with PETG and StoneFill, so i'm happy owning both options. But if you consider buying it and plan to print with PLA mostly/only, I wouldn't advise the powdered sheet over de PEI sheet.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Yes !!! you made my days guys ! Works for me too after hours spent to calibrate first layer. I can confirm isopropyl cleaning is not enough, washing with warm water & dish soap solved my sticking issue
Thanks @tim-m30 & @Anachronist for your posts
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Yes !!! you made my days guys ! Works for me too after hours spent to calibrate first layer. I can confirm isopropyl cleaning is not enough, washing with warm water & dish soap solved my sticking issue
Thanks @tim-m30 & @Anachronist for your posts
You're welcome. I am also suspecting that 70% isopropyl alcohol might be better than 99% for sheets that need regular soap+water washing, like mine. If the residues I'm washing off are soluble in water but not alcohol, then using alcohol with some water in it might increase the times between washings.
The only time I have trouble getting PLA to stick is if I have a long tall part (like a lithophane) or a large rectangular part with square corners. Then I get part of my print peeling up off the bed, tearing itself out of the brim. In that case, I probably should use a raft, but I haven't tried that yet. I used to think rafts were an unnecessary waste of material until I got my MMU2S and started wasting material on wipe towers. Now I think a raft may be a good investment to avoid wasting a whole print.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Hairspray!
Just go to Walgreens or CVS and get a firm hold house brand spray. Works wonders!
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Hairspray!
Just go to Walgreens or CVS and get a firm hold house brand spray. Works wonders!
Well, I haven't really had a problem as long as I keep my powder-coated sheet washed regularly. However, I just got some PLA+ and I read that PLA+ has adhesion problems compared to regular PLA. So I have a question about hairspray:
How do you keep it off the rest of the printer? I don't want overspray accumulating and gunking up other parts of the printer, or my desk. Do you just put some on a paper towel and wipe it onto the build plate?
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
Just spritz the sheet before you start the print.
RE:
Just spritz the sheet before you start the print.
Unfortunately, that seemed to make the build plate even more slippery. The part came off pretty quickly (a small round but tall cylindrical shape). Soap and water again, that did the trick.
I'm trying to figure out how to print a long part with PLA+, which doesn't stick well to the buid plate in the first place. It's long enough to warp (just a little bit) but the warp strength is enough to tear itself out of the brim. I'm trying again with a "helper disk" that I found in PrusaSlicer.
I've started not only washing the steel sheet with warm soapy water, but also gently rubbing it with stainless steel wool while washing it. That powder-coat surface is unbelievably tough and I don't seem to be scratching it, but things seem to stick a little better to it. Yes, I know, I'm probably ruining the sheet, but I'm doing this only on one side. The other side is still pristine - I have never used that side since I bought the printer. The steel sheet is a consumable part anyway.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
You do know you need to let it thoroughly dry, right?
RE:
You do know you need to let it thoroughly dry, right?
Well, of course. And once the build plate is all heated up, it's as dry as it's ever going to be. Maybe I just used the wrong hair spray (the bottle says "maximum hold" but I noticed it has perfumes in the ingredients). Or maybe it was just too old. Or maybe it was because I wiped it on instead of spraying it. My wife happened to have a couple of bottles of Vidal Sasoon hairspray from a couple decades ago that she never used (not the kind in a pressurized can, but in a plastic spray bottle). The one I tried definitely didn't help and actually made the adhesion worse.
With a thoroughly washed build plate, adhesion is really only a problem with one particular spool of PLA+ filament I have. Other filament sticks well enough to the plate. I finally managed to print a long narrow part with that problematic PLA+. The helper disks / mouse ears did the trick.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
You definitely need to use a firm hold spray and not too much, a little goes a long way. Just spritz a bit on the sheet and let it dry.
Got2BeGlued works well as does Aquanet Extra Firm Hold, as in a spray that will hold on a windy day.
Don't use things like spray on leave-in conditioner or combination products.
RE: powder coated bed not sticking without glue?
There was some conversation a while back, may have been here, may have been on another board, with some speculation that Layerneer is actually re-packaged hair spray.