Re: PLA not sticking???
Also, I should note that as per usual, Prusa know all this and have a guide that fully explains that additional cleaning should be done every so often:
https://help.prusa3d.com/article/6Gtws6Yqjg-pei-print-surface-preparation
But I didn't read the instructions....
Re: PLA not sticking???
Had the same problems as many of you decribed. At first all prints was coming out great! used IPA before print, but after a while they stoped to stick to the surface and the aceton stoped to work aswell. If it did stick it usally ended with a big blob on the nozzle because it hit the pla on the surface. I tried most of everything from changing the live Z value to changing speeds in the slicer.
SOLUTION: What i found out after MANY fails is that IPA and Aceton dosen't remove the smal layer of grease that will eventually build up. When you wipe you will get of some of it but after a while, there will be a THIN layer that the IPA and aceton can't remove very well, because they can't penerate. To remove this layer you ned two things, SOAP for dishwashing AND the most importent thing a CLOTH for kitchen (pref a new one) and mechanically remove the hard layer using some force. Rinse with cold water and use a paper towel to dry of. The final thing is to clean the surface with IPA once again and now it's ready to be used for printing.
MOST of all FAILED prints is because of adhesion problem. And the print surface will degrade. Your printer is in most case just fine!
Re: PLA not sticking???
I'm just going to summarize a full "escalation path" to troubleshooting 1st layer stick problems, assuming you've been printing ok before, I'm sure much/all of this has been posted elsewhere.
We see SO MANY people ask us for help with PLA stick, we've seen tape, glue, hairspray, and we always send it back clean and PLA sticking perfect by stripping all that junk off and just giving it a fresh 100% pure acetone refresh.
Obvious *MECHANICAL* things to check *FIRST*:
The above are all problems that will trip up a perfectly calibrated machine.
If you have been printing a bunch and now you're losing stick, and you've checked the obvious mechanical causes, then you need to "refresh" your bed:
High purity (>90%) Isopropyl (rubbing) Alcohol used frequently is great for removing oils and contaminants.
%100 Pure Acetone has two ingredients only: Acetone and Denatonium benzoate (a bitterant), this can be used to "refresh" the PEI surface.
Polyetherimide (PEI) is solvent resistant, but acetone is strong enough to "re-crystalize" the surface restoring "like new" stick with PLA.
You can refresh the bed with acetone thousands of times, you're only stripping away a molecular layer of the PEI with the solvent.
WARNING: PET Materials should NEVER be printed on an Acetone refreshed bed without first preparing the bed with a good wipe of Windex as an interface layer, PEI and PET are too similar materials and they will permanently bond and potentially RUIN YOUR PEI SHEET if printed without proper preparation!
NEVER SPRAY ANYTHING DIRECTLY ON THE BED, you might spray into the electronics!
Always dispense your solvent onto a cloth/towel THEN wipe.
Happy Printing!
Re: PLA not sticking???
The best answer doesn't work for me. It's not the printing surface. I've washed it with soap and water, and done acetone wipe-down, not for a third time. And the benchy loaded on the SD from the factory won't adhere enough to print. Something else has to be going on here.
I resorted to using hairspray (works more often that glue stick), with some degree of success (not everything sticks like it should), and tape worked 0% (after ordering printer bed-size rolls off amazon), but I don't want to have to prop up my $1K Prusa printer for which I'm not supposed to have to resort to such tactics, like other inferior printers, because I can't figure out anything else.
Is it ultimately all about adjusting width/height/speed of the initial layer, that's going to ensure success? I have simplify3d, and can't seem to track down a bulletproof config for the MK3S anywhere (there's not even a file download on the prusa site for Simplify3D settings for the MK3s, like there is for the MK1/MK2).
The fact that I printed 3 files from the SD card from the factory successfully initially, with my factory assembled printer, and then all heyll broke loose from there (prints losing their adherence midway through prints, causing various degrees of complications, including print nozzle getting globs of melted PLA all around the print head).
The only thing I can print now, successfully, is a Yoda 3d statue, that I could print successfully with my old Maker Select Plus. It appears it's because the raft I now have to print it on has the first layer nice and wide and slow. I am starting down this road, and accepting this as my new norm, having to tweak my gcode files without good guidance/support from the factory, in order to get anything to stick. Was really hoping to not spend the bulk of my free time learning the intricacies of gcode configuration, kinda the reason I bought the "best", so I wouldn't have to. But, oh well, not just have to figure this out by Tuesday, b/c daughter needs a figure for a school project that I though we could spend 30 mins on this wkend, but has taken over my waking hours..
I digress..
Nothing's working for adhering PLA in Prusa MK3S, other the prospect of optimizing the first layer in gcode, through personal trail and error, I see no other paths through this..
I guess I'll resort to using this as a starting point in tweaking the first layer settings
Thanks
Re: PLA not sticking???
I think we have all been down this road (well at least most of us) it will print great and no problems and then all hell brakes loose and it will not stick.
I'll give you my two cents... what you described usually happens to me when ive been using the same roll of pla for awhile... I do noticed that humidity and ambient temperature does come into play and hot end cooling is everything on this machine... I got my prusa brand new and could not get it to print and the pla would not stick no matter what I did .... make a long story short I had accidently reversed plugged the print and cooling fans 😡 😆 😳
anyways back on subject … what you described happened to me as well I was 3/4 through the print and the pla became brittle and it failed to stick and then I had problems getting any type of quality print afterwards . then I realized that the nozzle was not getting airflow from the front print fan... the fan nozzle was skewed and was not seated properly ...after that the printing got better and the problem went away.
instead of playing with layer heights and speed you might want to look at temps... with 3d printing you cant rule out anything
RE: PLA not sticking???
+1 for the dish soap suggestion
I had the same problem with my textured PEI sheet even though I avoid touching the surface and clean it frequently with 99.9% IPA wipes.
A quick gentle wash with dish soap and warm water brought everything back to normal for me.
RE: PLA not sticking???
@gaston-d3
Did you used ethilic alcohol or isopropilic?
RE: PLA not sticking???
@roger-s11
Sooo not sure if a replay will get this to the top of this thread, maybe @travis-c5 can update his orginal post 2 years later :))))). buuutttt for anyone else with this exact same problem, like me, CLEAN THE BED with dish soap before you try anything else. After two days this solved my problem in 5 min.... 🙂
RE: PLA not sticking???
There are so many threads like this, cleaning is the answer 90% of the time and the rest are Z calibration.
IPA and acetone are first class grease removers if used in sufficient quantitly but they don't remove sugars. Water does.
Anyone who has handled food (and anyone with children) must assume that sugars are also everywhere they touch - including on rolls of filament that will carry sugars through the hotend and onto the bed, not all is destroyed in the process.
So: regular use of IPA or Methylated spirit. When that stops working use soap and hot water. In extreme cases, perhaps after 3,000 hours of printing, an Acetone refresh.
Hth, Cheerio,
RE: PLA not sticking???
I had the EXACT SAME symptoms occur here as the OP! To the letter! I was able to calibrate perfectly after I built my new i3 and had great prints. After about 2 weeks of printing all of the sudden the PLA would not stick. I thought it must have somehow came uncalibrated, and after trying to recalibrate 25 or 30 times, I switched filaments had some success but only limited switched back to the same filament and had no success changed the mesh to a bigger grid no help and drove myself nuts for a week. I also tried cleaning with IPA which did not solve it either.
Then, after a bit of deep diving that led me here, I literally washed the plate with dish soap, water, and a sponge, then IPA again, and it was like a MIRACLE!!! Wow.... Dish soap was my missing piece.
BUT, now, after only two good addl prints, it started all over again!!!! DAMN IT!!!!
RE: PLA not sticking???
I can practically guarantee that the adhesion issues many are experiencing are due to a dirty built plate. This is one of the most frustrating and misunderstood concepts I’ve encountered in 3D printing.
There is a lot of mis-information regarding best practices where cleaning a build sheet is concerned. The official Prusa position is to use IPA of the highest concentration you can find (90-99%) for regular cleaning and acetone (on the smooth PEI sheet only) when you reach the point where alcohol is no longer effective. Acetone will eventually break down the PEI coating so its use is suggested sparingly. Use of acetone on the textured and satin powder coated sheets is NEVER recommended as it will immediately begin to attack the surface finish.
3D Printing objects on a platen using molten plastic leaves residue behind after the model has been printed and removed from the bed. PLA, in particular, leaves behind a very slippery residue that builds up with use. Some of the residue is visible but some is nearly imperceptible. Additionally, constant handling of the print sheet leads to a buildup of grease and oils from yours fingers and hands. These serve to make print adhesion even worse.
The Prusa manual says to use alcohol to clean the print sheet. They even include an alcohol wipe with the printer. But cleaning the print sheet with alcohol only works to a point, and only temporarily. The alcohol will break down some of the plastic residue and dilute it, allowing you to move it around. But repeatedly wiping down the build sheet with an alcohol soaked paper towel only redistributes the residue, it doesn’t remove it. Eventually, there are so many slippery molecules of plastic left behind on the bed after the alcohol evaporates, new prints will refuse to stick any longer.
At this point, an acetone treatment, because it’s a very aggressive organic solvent, may give you back some lost bed adhesion by breaking up some of the residues and allowing them to be mostly wiped away. This process potentially also etches the surface layer of the PEI sheet, exposing fresh material to adhere to beneath.
I’ve learned what works to really clean the print sheet without causing any harm to it from many of the good users in these forums, so I want to pass it forward. Frankly, I’m surprised none of the mods has taken one of the excellent posts on effective cleaning tips and made it a sticky at the top of the ‘Assembly and first prints troubleshooting’ sections. It’s an issue so common and so baffling, it deserves a permanent place there.
A serious deep cleaning of your build sheet requires a trip to the kitchen sink, or shop/laundry/slop sink if you have one. You will need three common household items and lots of very hot water.
First you will need Dawn Dish Detergent (in the U.S., Farie in the U.K.) with no additives or fragrances. We’ve all seen the Dawn commercials where they use the product to clean birds and wildlife that have been caught in an oil spill. This is actually a proven use case which works because Dawn contains surfactants which allows the water molecules to attach to the oil molecules and flush the oil away from the animal. The same principle works with our print sheets. The surfactants in the detergent allow the leftover polymer molecules on the build plate to attach to the water molecules and float them away. I have experimented with other dish detergents and found I actually had worse adhesion after cleaning than before.
Next, you need a brand new, unused non-scratch abrasive scrubbing sponge. Something like the yellow sponge with the rough green scouring surface on one side, marketed under the Scotch-Brite brand. Do not, under any circumstances, use a sponge that has been used to wash dishes or has come in contact with food. This will completely negate your efforts and your build plate will end up slipperier than when you started. And don’t use an abrasive sponge containing metals or other aggressive scouring materials.
Finally, you’ll need some clean dry paper towels.
Wet the print sheet thoroughly with the hottest water you can stand. Generously apply Dawn Dish Detergent to the surface and scrub vigorously with the scouring sponge until the detergent builds a thick, heavy foam. You may need to rinse and repeat more than once. Use lots of hot water. You need to break up and float off the residue.
Avoid touching the surface of the plate with your fingers. Hold it by the edges only and/or wear a pair of clean,non-powdered disposable gloves. When you’ve finished with one side flip it over and repeat on the other side. Rinse any soap and residue completely.
When finished cleaning, remove the plate from the sink, handling only by the edges, and immediately and thoroughly dry with clean paper towels.
Return the print sheet to the printer, align & Install on the heatbed (all without touching the surface with your fingers), and run a preheat routine for any filament in order to insure any remaining moisture is driven out of the print sheet. Once you reach target bed temperature you can either start a print or cancel the pre-heat routine.
Do not wipe the sheet down with alcohol and do not wipe the sheet down with a microfiber cloth or any other material. Make your first print on the freshly washed and dried surface and see what your results look like. That should be all you need.
You can use 90% or better IPA between prints as before but when you see adhesion begin to deteriorate, flip the build plate over to the clean side or, if you’ve been flipping it, it’s time for a trip to the sink.
This is what has worked for me with the textured and the satin powder coated sheets. I don’t have a smooth PEI sheet but based on accounts by other users, this method is just as effective with them.
Good luck and I hope someone finds this information helpful.
R-
RE: PLA not sticking???
Just got mine. PINDA probe was somehow joggled in shipment (or something). After trying much of what was said here, I realized (since I am not new to printers but somehow lost my brains when starting the Prusa) that the nozzle was too high. It would print the initial zebra strips just fine but would have nothing to do with an actual project. While the printed test that came with the Prusa was perfect, it could not be duplicated. Live Z adjust to over -2 mm was the answer. Now it works. Should have seen it right away but brain farted.
RE: PLA not sticking???
Just a follow up question. Is there such a thing as using Dawn too many times? If one were to clean a print sheet say every other print, does the cleaning need to be as aggressive?
RE:
re: Does the cleaning need to be as agressive?
I don't wash mine every other print but I do wipe it down between prints with alcohol or water. If the buildup is obvious, I clean it completely. Let's say every five to ten prints. Oh... I use Aqua Net and it is famous for sticky and usually doesn't need refreshing unless an obvious dry spot shows. More to your point, I don't aggressively clean it... ever. If it has a lot of build up, I soak it and wipe it with a clean towel. As some of the Prusa team has said, you can tune it so you don't need sticky - and I have - but I still use it (belt and suspenders).
With hairspray, I have two friends who say to spray the bed with water, heat it to 70 and everything will float to the top and then dry in a nice smooth sheet. Haven't tried it but these guys are pretty sharp so I believe it.
RE: PLA not sticking???
Just a follow up question. Is there such a thing as using Dawn too many times? If one were to clean a print sheet say every other print, does the cleaning need to be as aggressive?
I would say that there is no issue washing your build plate with dish detergent before every print if you feel more confident that it will help with the overall quality of your prints.
My opinion is that it really does not matter how you clean your plate, or what product or procedure you use, or to an extent how often you do it, just so you can assure that your build plate is really most sincerely clean for each print.
Personally, I rarely, if ever, use any water-based solvents such as dish detergent. Why? I do not have a sink in convenient reach of the printer. I will usually give the plate a good wipe with IPA on a paper towel (or during the height of the pandemic with denatured alcohol, as IPA was in short supply), let it thoroughly dry, if necessary apply or re-apply Layerneer if needed as an adhesion booster or release agent, and then give the plate a good look-see inspection to be sure there are no fingerprints or spots of anything that would cause trouble.
I have very few failed prints, and very very few which fail due to adhesion, or lack of same.
RE: PLA not sticking???
It seems everyone’s experience is somewhat different. I imagine the only real downside to water and detergent is the potential for rust, even if minimal, so be sure to dry thoroughly and heat it up on the printer to drive out any residual moisture. I don’t use any sort of abrasive material to clean the sheet; the most aggressive sponge I use is one of the scotch-brite variety.
I typically clean the sheet with 91% IPA between prints. If I notice a lot of buildup on the sheet or if my prints begin to show signs of warping, I’ll take the sheet to the sink and give it a good scrubbing.
For me, PETG prints don’t require near as frequent cleanup as PLA. PLA residue becomes like Teflon at some point and new prints refuse to stick well. But again, that’s just me,
You’ll find a routine that’s works for you quick enough. The printer will let you know when it needs attention. In the meantime, just enjoy making stuff.
Cheers
RE: PLA not sticking???
Just a follow up question. Is there such a thing as using Dawn too many times? If one were to clean a print sheet say every other print, does the cleaning need to be as aggressive?
I would say that there is no issue washing your build plate with dish detergent before every print if you feel more confident that it will help with the overall quality of your prints.
My opinion is that it really does not matter how you clean your plate, or what product or procedure you use, or to an extent how often you do it, just so you can assure that your build plate is really most sincerely clean for each print.
Personally, I rarely, if ever, use any water-based solvents such as dish detergent. Why? I do not have a sink in convenient reach of the printer. I will usually give the plate a good wipe with IPA on a paper towel (or during the height of the pandemic with denatured alcohol, as IPA was in short supply), let it thoroughly dry, if necessary apply or re-apply Layerneer if needed as an adhesion booster or release agent, and then give the plate a good look-see inspection to be sure there are no fingerprints or spots of anything that would cause trouble.
I have very few failed prints, and very very few which fail due to adhesion, or lack of same.
Pretty true unless you use a gluestick and print PC Blend. With that procedure, you will need to use soap and water more often.
Also, soap and water may be needed if you handle your sheets a lot. IPA will smear oils when there are a lot on your bed.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: PLA not sticking???
Thanks for this very informative post. I had severe PLA sticking issues, did 20 Z leveling and it didn't help (so DO IPA on a smooth surface) I flipped the smooth sheet and suddenly prints are OK again so the focus is IMO (If all other HW components are weel) is the the smooth metal sheet need a very good cleaning! PLA is not enough
RE: PLA not sticking???
There just seems to be so much variance regarding what has to be the number one frustrating and hair-pulling issue reported. Prints that do not stick.
Some users (and I appear to be one) have very few issues getting prints to stick. Some others report significant difficulty getting prints to stick.
It seems like most non-stick reports have to do with PLA filament, but I remember hearing issues about PETg as well, although not nearly as many.
It also seems like most non-stick reports have to do with the smooth PEI build plate, although some of the most frustrating ones have to do with the Prusa textured build plate. I might think that since the smooth plate is far more common, that's why it gets more complaints.
I really think that a good percentage of the non-stick complaints are not due to a dirty build plate in and of itself. We're all adults, and we know when something is clean and when it is not, and we all read (or should have read) the instructions and tutorials and class notes that emphasize that the build plate must be spotless.
I think there are a number of factors that can cause or contribute to a model not sticking. I daresay that many reports of non-stick (resulting in knee-jerk responses) have to do mainly with such things as a marginal or poor Z calibration, wrong filament/printer profile, damp or otherwise wonky filament, poor model placement (if it's not flat against the build plate, it ain't gonna stick), and even such things as room temperature, humidity, etc.
Sure, re-cleaning the build plate may help in some of these cases, but I think that other possible factors need to be considered before blaming a failed print on a dirty build plate.
There also seems to be a reluctance in some users, almost to the point of some kind of ideological purity, to avoid using adhesion boosters. I do 'get it' that such products should not be used in lieu of a clean build plate, but if it comes down to a successful print with a coating of Layerneer vs. a failed print on a bare surface, I will choose the former.
LOL, and then there's the blue tape. 😉
RE: PLA not sticking???
Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who doesn't have problems with prints sticking to the sheet. It's always just worked for me.
Now one thing I do is a bit oddball, and I do have to pay attention, that is that I sometimes print on a ferrotype plate, normally used for wet darkroom photo printing. This gives an absolutely beautiful mirror finish to your print, but it doesn't naturally stick cuz, well, it's slippery smooth and there's nothing to stick to!
Sooooo I give it a liberal dose of hairspray, Got2 B Glued (see other thread) and it sticks just fine.
Tried the stick glue as well but it blurs and fogs the mirror finish.
Anyway, I'm sure prints not sticking is the exception and not the rule. I mean Prusa sells what? Hundreds? Thousands? of printers each month? And if prints not sticking was a major problem, this forum and their technical support would be overloaded with "My prints won't stick" complaints.