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Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread  

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martinkh
(@martinkh)
Eminent Member
RE:

Lack of commercial quantities of power supplies does not explain the lack of performance data on the printer.

Have they bragged about what they have done with this printer in testing, or anything beyond marketing hype? We do not know print speed, deposition rate, we do not see tall tower tests, positional accuracy with large deltaz,x,y positional values, long run times without error, nothing. This means they cannot get consistently good results to report with any power supply.

Please, prove me wrong. The XL is starting to feel like clickbait that doesn't deliver.

This post was modified 1 month ago by martinkh
Posted : 04/07/2022 4:18 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Topic starter answered:
RE:

Their history does not indicate any history of clickbait.  This printer has been seen first hand at shows.  Then again, Prusa nor anyone on this forum owes you any proof.  

Posted by: @martinkh

Lack of commercial quantities of power supplies does not explain the lack of performance data on the printer.

Have they bragged about what they have done with this printer in testing, or anything beyond marketing hype? We do not know print speed, deposition rate, we do not see tall tower tests, positional accuracy with large deltaz,x,y positional values, long run times without error, nothing. This means they cannot get consistently good results to report with any power supply.

Please, prove me wrong. The XL is starting to feel like clickbait that doesn't deliver.

 

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 04/07/2022 4:26 pm
martinkh
(@martinkh)
Eminent Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Playing high and mighty is not an argument against logic. While you effectively signaled your virtue to the company, you don't seem curious about the lack of performance data that has been provided. Potential customers need to stick together and let them know that we want to know that the wait is worth it.

Posted : 04/07/2022 4:30 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Topic starter answered:
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

I am sure that will come when it is finally released to the public.  Heck, it is not even officially released yet and you are asking for data on a product whose final parts have not been finalized.  

Posted by: @martinkh

Playing high and mighty is not an argument against logic. While you effectively signaled your virtue to the company, you don't seem curious about the lack of performance data that has been provided. Potential customers need to stick together and let them know that we want to know that the wait is worth it.

 

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 04/07/2022 4:52 pm
martinkh
(@martinkh)
Eminent Member
RE:

I've done project management before, in manufacturing. As you approach and enter the initially advertised release date, you provide as much tempting data as you can, to convince customers that it is worth the wait, and to assure them that you are making progress. If they need people to wait longer for the product, fine. But clamming up and avoiding the issue is weak. Clamming up when there are real problems with the project is really weak. Prusa is losing sales over this. There are more and more square foot volume printers coming out from companies that are not redirecting time and talent to vanity projects like signed printers. That had to rankle you.

I wasn't trying to be harsh before, not at you, but Prusa needs to hear customers. A great 12"^3 printer with improved greatly improved speed over the mini is currently a big hole in the marketplace- currently being filled by the Chinese. If they can get them to work well, this could really hurt Prusa.

This post was modified 1 month ago by martinkh
Posted : 04/07/2022 5:06 pm
Diem
 Diem
(@diem)
Famed Member

Prusa is losing sales over this.

I expect they can sell everything they can make.  Until they enlarge their factory losing sales is not an issue, they can do without that sort of customer.

A great 12"^3 printer with improved greatly improved speed over the mini is currently a big hole in the marketplace

And will remain so at hobby prices.  Prusa's printers are cheap for what they offer but if you want 'greatly improved speed' you are moving into the industrial market with prices to match.

Cheerio,

Posted : 04/07/2022 5:30 pm
DRKMSTR
(@drkmstr)
Trusted Member
RE:

Woah woah woah, calm down folks.

1. We know from Prusa they are having issues obtaining parts for Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP)

2. Prusa HAS plenty of engineering prototype versions of the XL

3. Prusa DOES NOT have the parts necessary to perform an LRIP for their "Production Engineering Samples" which reflect the EXACT COMPONENTS they will use for their large-scale production

4. Prusa lamented about this during the Livestream, how their delivery dates keep getting pushed as suppliers stab them in the back by reneging on previous agreements and quotes on availability.

5. The performance metrics will not be fully revealed and understood until they have a bunch of engineering LRIP printers in-hand. Until then they have performance based off of prototype samples which do not reflect the full performance of the production versions.

6. They are actively working with experts in COREXY printers (voron community) to optimize features and improve printing quality - however this is slow until they have LRIP printers.

 

Calm down folks, the electronics industry is insanely back-stabby right now. I can't even get reliable delivery dates from one of the largest component manufacturers in my field. We've had to buy out entire stock quantities of parts simply because the supplier stated they won't do another production run for years based upon current orders and backlogs. Add on shenzen shutting down for "zero COVID" and even meanwell might not be able to supply Prusas needs.

 

 

Unrelated note: Prusa doesn't have super strict EU requirements on their power supplies, look at the recent "Mini" power supply from delta, I could fly a jumbo jet from the tolerances on it. It's not even UL listed. All they need is compliance, which is insanely easy if you read into it.

This post was modified 1 month ago by DRKMSTR
Posted : 04/07/2022 5:57 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Topic starter answered:
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Prusa will deliver the XL on its terms.  There is no reason to flame the forums.  They have their reasons for not releasing data.  No amount of belly-aching on the forum will get them to release the data before they are ready.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 04/07/2022 6:01 pm
MileHigh3Der
(@milehigh3der)
Estimable Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

50,000 power supplies? Sound like a lot, but what is it a couple of container loads?

If they had announced this product in fall 2019 and were struggling in 20/21 to deliver, I would understand- but they announced this in 21 when all these risks were known.

And to be frank, offhanded comments on blogs are not customer service.  I don’t think that I have gotten a single follow up email with an update from PRusa about the XL order? Hell, how many pre-orderers have died since ordering?  They need to be sending out official emails, at least once a quarter, at least reminding people and giving some kind of update or story.  Imagine you aren’t tuned in to all the blogs, tweets and forums.  You ordered an XL and were told Q3.  Well, it’s Q3 and you are expecting your printer to ship any day…. Right?  Now you find out that not only is it not ready, they don’t have a CLUE when they might be ready to ship…

I’m in manufacturing.  I get the supply issues.  Hell, we are far enough back we are causing them,  But even in a B2B context you have to manage expectations and messaging.  PRUSA in the consumer market needs to up their communications game.

The other issue is that PRUSA keeps on doing this. The MK3S/MMU2s, the Mini, all ran long and late.

Right before the XL, PRUSA announced their farm system. How is that coming along?

Posted : 04/07/2022 6:21 pm
Matt Boyer
(@matt-boyer)
Estimable Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Yup, all that and there's still a war going on in their back yard!  I'm anxious for news too, but I know I'll get my printer as soon as they can get it to me.  

Posted : 04/07/2022 6:23 pm
burtronix liked
Diem
 Diem
(@diem)
Famed Member

Right before the XL, PRUSA announced their farm system. How is that coming along?

They had it working at TCT 3Sixty...

See the first segment of:

Cheerio,

Posted : 04/07/2022 6:44 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Topic starter answered:
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Heck, I understand the issues and I am not in manufacturing.  We need a single item to treat many patients.  This item is made in the US but requires a single item made in China to finish it.  Because of the supply of this single product, we have had to triage care to only those whose lives need the product the most.  It has created delays in diagnoses.  It may result in deaths.  The XL issue is minor in comparison and I will wait.  I sure hope I get deliveries on the product I need before Prusa gets its power supplies.  

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 04/07/2022 7:02 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Topic starter answered:
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

 

Posted by: @milehigh3der

Right before the XL, PRUSA announced their farm system. How is that coming along?

I have not seen much publically.  I am sure we hear more about the XL and Farm System when they come up with a solution.  I certainly would keep it close to the cuff until I find a specific product to meet their needs.  I would not want to be held over a barrel to get a premium price.  I would find the solution and then release more details.   

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 04/07/2022 7:07 pm
burtronix
(@burtronix)
Estimable Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

@martinkh

I've done manufacturing projects, from new products & capacity expansion to cost reduction on mature lines. I've also done product innovation, supply chain, forecasting, & tech market analysis. I think your concerns are unfounded & your posts indicate that you have an axe to grind.

Whatever you find to do with your hands, do with all your might!

Posted : 05/07/2022 12:58 pm
Selta
(@selta)
Eminent Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

This is probably all I'll say on it -- I can't imagine any field where it's OK to not communicate updates about a product (especially when it's that you're missing your shipping window), when you have customers who have paid pre-order/deposits. In every market segment I've worked in, it's not the fact that you miss your deliverable that is the problem, but it's going completely dark and keeping everyone guessing and waiting. I've managed product delivery for things that took multiple years to develop, $100mm+ in hardware in some cases, and the only thing my customers expected of me was to keep them in the loop on how it's going. If I need to move my dates back, they were understanding, especially if I communicated that as early and as effectively as possible.
I really cannot imagine any industry where silence and hiding information is welcome by customers.

Posted : 05/07/2022 4:34 pm
jsw
 jsw
(@jsw)
Famed Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Prusa is, in general, a very good company with a quality product line.

However, speaking freely, one big 'opportunity for improvement' I've noticed over the past few years is their degree of interaction (as in here), or rather lack of same, with the user base.

Just a few updates, a few sentences, straight from the powers that be, would calm a lot of b*tching and speculation in this thread.

Another item that they are strangely silent on is the pre-lubrication of the linear bearings.  A brief note confirming EXACTLY what the supplied lubricant is (Mitsumi factory supplied shipping lubricant or something else) would certainly help avoid endless-loop speculation and possible misinformation.  I would expect something other than a cut-paste of the 'The bearings come pre-lubricated and no lubrication is necessary during assembly' which seems to be all they ever say on this.

Posted : 05/07/2022 4:49 pm
Artur5 liked
Win J.
(@win-j)
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Initial ESTIMATES were Q2-Q3.  Then solidly Q3.  We are 5 days into Q3.  So either way we are half way through the initial estimate or at the earliest stage of the updated estimate.  Supply chain issues are still out there, hugely affecting everything from auto manufacturers / Computer manufacturers down to 3D printer manufacturers.  Have you tried to buy a Raspberry Pi recently?  

Here is my speculation on the power supply issue.  We can postulate the XL will take 2 if not 3 power supplies depending on the number of toolheads.  Now, you need a unified power buss to feed the machine (3 power cords to wall sockets isn't a good practice).  So the power supplies need to be plug and play, not requiring hooking up wires individually.  I make this connection since it appears the AFS and the XL share the same design construct, and downtime for the AFS in an industrial / commercial / university setting is not something to take likely.  So the use of COTS (commercial off the shelf) power supplies is potentially the bottleneck.  You have to have a manufacturer who can manufacture the supplies within the performance specifications, AND integrate a custom connector, AND at the quantities and delivery schedules.  By making the power supplies common across the AFS and XL ines it reduces SKUs which makes inventory management easier.

To those who are screaming for technical data, I would not be expecting it until the actual orders are opened for the final configuration.  Why would they give the competition a head start and further impact their supply chain by adding demand for the parts they need?  Even prior to COVID they had to make a change to the Mini Z-Axis motor due to supply constraints. 

I can safely say that Prusa3D wants to bring this to market as soon as they are able.  But with the common lineage between the XL and AFS, they do not want technical issues at launch.

To each their own, I'm not going to get myself worked up on shipping dates given the state of the world.  Will it ship this quarter (by September 30)?  Maybe.  Will it ship by the end of Q4?  Likely, but a lot of stars need to align.  Were Prusa3D overly optimistic that the supply chains would recover?  Yes, like every other manufacturer.  And every consumer.

Disclosure:  I have ZERO insight into the company, I base my opinions on available information and my experiences.  I am also a customer with a MK3S and Mini.  I also have an XL on pre-order.

Posted : 05/07/2022 5:21 pm
burtronix liked
burtronix
(@burtronix)
Estimable Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

 

Posted by: @selta

This is probably all I'll say on it -- I can't imagine any field where it's OK to not communicate updates about a product (especially when it's that you're missing your shipping window), when you have customers who have paid pre-order/deposits. In every market segment I've worked in, it's not the fact that you miss your deliverable that is the problem, but it's going completely dark and keeping everyone guessing and waiting. I've managed product delivery for things that took multiple years to develop, $100mm+ in hardware in some cases, and the only thing my customers expected of me was to keep them in the loop on how it's going. If I need to move my dates back, they were understanding, especially if I communicated that as early and as effectively as possible.
I really cannot imagine any industry where silence and hiding information is welcome by customers.

They haven't missed the shipping window: it was initially estimated Q2-Q3, more recently narrowed to Q3. We just started Q3. And they've explained the supply chain issues that made Q2 not possible. What's all this "going dark"crap? If you want to pull your order, go right ahead. More order fulfillment for the rest of us.

Whatever you find to do with your hands, do with all your might!

Posted : 05/07/2022 9:09 pm
Selta
(@selta)
Eminent Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Not sure why the attitude. I know full well I can cancel my pre-order if I'd like, and, it's something I'm considering, with a lot of weight being put on how Prusa acts.
"Going dark" because they don't talk to pre-order folks. They did one "Dev Diary", which the name of implies there would be more, but, nada. That's the definition of going dark, after all.
We've just started Q3, the last timeline where they said they'd deliver. Silence. I think the multiple posts here and elsewhere simply prove that the silence is not welcome by the community. Prusa doesn't need you to go off and defend them on it.

Posted : 05/07/2022 9:19 pm
MileHigh3Der
(@milehigh3der)
Estimable Member
RE: Unofficial Prusa XL Waiting Thread

Dark as in haven’t sent out any emails to PEOPLE WHO HAVE PUT DOWN MONEY.  

I would like to not that PRUSA doesn’t monitor the forum here, so coming here for info is a reflection of their statements, not actual 1st hand info.  Having to sit through vBLOGs to get sniff of info isn’t very good.

Is this a generational thing where the ‘kids’ don’t use email?

Prusa can do this, when forced to.  I think it was the Mk3s that they would have order time/number and anticipated ship dates- going out a few months.   They aren’t anywhere CLOSE to that now.  Supposedly this is a bigger project and will take longer to fill.  Right now it seems that PRUSA doesn’t have a clue when they will start shipping.  That’s not good, but that we have been talking about this for months and they still haven’t addressed the issue is bizarre…

Do we need to all go on Twitter and start hounding them for answers?

The seem to want to try to play big-company ball, and their product warrants it, but if I had a farm to put in, the last place I’d look right now is Prusa AFS.  Or I’ll be even more hacked-off if PRUSA has been giving those customers consistent updates while we try to parse vBlog comments.

 

Lulzbot just showed off a coreX-y machine.

Posted by: @burtronix

 

Posted by: @selta

This is probably all I'll say on it -- I can't imagine any field where it's OK to not communicate updates about a product (especially when it's that you're missing your shipping window), when you have customers who have paid pre-order/deposits. In every market segment I've worked in, it's not the fact that you miss your deliverable that is the problem, but it's going completely dark and keeping everyone guessing and waiting. I've managed product delivery for things that took multiple years to develop, $100mm+ in hardware in some cases, and the only thing my customers expected of me was to keep them in the loop on how it's going. If I need to move my dates back, they were understanding, especially if I communicated that as early and as effectively as possible.
I really cannot imagine any industry where silence and hiding information is welcome by customers.

They haven't missed the shipping window: it was initially estimated Q2-Q3, more recently narrowed to Q3. We just started Q3. And they've explained the supply chain issues that made Q2 not possible. What's all this "going dark"crap? If you want to pull your order, go right ahead. More order fulfillment for the rest of us.

 

Posted : 05/07/2022 9:46 pm
Selta liked
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