RE:
If you look at other posts of R&D you will notice that he is upset in many things. Maybe it would be better to buy a 10k$ machine and not a consumer one. I think a prusa can not solve his tasks.
I never had an MMU, but i think it is an not so easy to handle device, not so like the printers.
RE: Prusa Delays
I'm generally surprised how many seem to base their businesses on PR machines. It always seemed totally obvious to me that they are targeting R&D (limited prototyping), education and hobbyists. Maybe also non-critical business applications like model building or signage. A certain willingness to tinker seems to be a prerequisite.
RE:
I am not the only one though. There are many people with a well working MMU. Actually, I know people who basically plug and printed with their MMUs without major issues from the start. No mods whatsoever. I needed a bit to dial-in and trouble shoot, but after that it has worked reliably ever since. Some units seem to have some power issues which are indeed harder to address (and a matter for warranty in my opinion, ie replacement boards or whatever) but I dare to claim that this is only affecting a minority of customers.
One can print multimaterial, but it is more challenging and there are certain limitations. So yes "MMU" is stretching it but it is not false. It is correct however that if you want to use multimaterial the best options are either dual extruder (if it is just two) or tool changers (that is why the XL is such an interesting proposition for a ceratin niche). AMS or Palette face the same or even worse limitations in that area as they are also single nozzle technologies.
The MMU3 won't change those fundamental limitations but I think it should make the MMU much more approachable because the printer can now show concise text error messages instead of a cryptic one size fits it all error message with even more cryptic light codes on the MMU itself. Also 2way communication enables potentially much better response to smaller issues without need for manual intervention.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE:
Nozzle jams are an interesting issue for an MMU. If anything my MMU was helping against nozzle jams when using a 0.25 nozzle with slightly clogging prone PLA filaments. Otherwise I have rarely seen nozzle jams so far in general, with appropriate printing profiles.
PS: To be honest, I was very surprised Prusa came up with an MMU3. I though with the XL they would let the MMU phase out. But then, an XL is just too steep in price to play in the same market as the Mk4 I suppose, so there is still a place for the MMU3. I am very interested to know how much more approachable it will be, easier to handle than the MMU2s.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
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I'm curious to see whether you can hook up MMU3 to the XL. It would be interesting to have a toolhead reserved for multicolor.
Regarding MMU reliability, it is my belief that it has a lot to do with hotend/heatbreak geometry (and cooling of same). Possibly the Nextruder is more suitable.
RE: Prusa Delays
It is not supported officially, at least on the shop page it only lists Mk3s and Mk4 as compatible with the MMU3. But I wouldn' know why it should be impossible to make it compatible to the XL if it works with the Mk4.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE: Prusa Delays
I agree that for a lot of people mmu was probably hassle free and works most of the time. And usually positive experiences don't find their way to forum posts. But the amount of people with problems with mmu2s is still, in my personal opinion, not acceptable for a product to be considered successful. I knew when i bought it that some tinkering will be needed. Not in that extend though. And if the weather becomes hotter and a the fillament end becomes a little more "stringy" back to recalculating and playing with options to get a relatively hassle free printout. And in a 48h print even a single loading failure takes you back. And if you want to use multiple materials and have to wait for temperature changes then time increases even more. Its a multicolour beta unit with a little bit of luck on the side. Thats why personally i wouldn't even touch mmu3 and went with the XL and multiple toolheads.
RE: Prusa Delays
I wouldn't be surprised if the AMS on Bambu printers start acting up soon. It's a very involved concept with lots of moving parts. And very dependent on filament type/quality/temperatures. Back when I tried to get MMU working, I could easily have bought painting supplies, lamps & a desk and painted every single model, and still have saved on time and money (while probably having a more pleasant experience). I did everything PR support ever asked of me and tried everything on the forum, using tools, knowledge and skills most people would not have. I even bought filament known to work and replaced the heatbreak several times after PR sent new ones. In the end the best I could hope for was maybe a week before it all went to shit again. Eventually (after more than a year of trying, both with MMU1 and 2) I just couldn't be bothered anymore, it made me sick just to be in the same room with the wretched thing. So I'll call it a fail 😉
If it ever works with the XL and everyone on the forum and their mums are happy with it, I might consider getting a MMU3. But only as an assembled unit, and if it doesn't immediately work they can have it back.
RE: Prusa Delays
After the MMU topic comes up again, I would also like to contribute my opinion.I bought a MMU, but actually it is pretty useless for the actual purpose!What works mostly is a multicolor print with identical material. But even here there are 2 points to consider:
- increased material consumption and time requirement because of the wipe tower.
- Material change not reliable; unattended printing overnight for several hours often goes wrong
Further problems:
- Unsuitable for flexible filament; the risk of jamming is significantly increased
- my actual idea of printing solid and soluble filament at the same time doesn't actually work at all. There is always contamination/mixing after the material change, which makes the 3D object unstable
- another idea, to print solid and flexible filament at the same time for one part, actually doesn't work reliably either
so I use the MMU actually only because of convenience, the 5 most frequently used materials are inserted and I can select the filament by menu at the start of printing.
RE: Prusa Delays
After having spent a TON of time with the MMU2S I'll just say:
Prusa officially only supports PLA + soluble(for obvious reasons of temperature difference between materials etc). I have gotten it to work with PETG but it's never reliable. for PLA and PETG color changes it's generally pretty reliable, but this mostly came down to specific amount of of tension on the extruder and mmu idler screws, the festo connector mod on back of mmu and alternate placement of spools. It's also very dependent on the brands of filament. The super cheap stuff generally blobs on filament change. PLA + BVOH has been the most successful for me. color changes of the same type of filament geneally work. I do get the random power issue(all blinking leds), but it's rare. I would NEVER count on the MMU to work however. Because I understand the limitations of the MMU, I would never even try flexibles. I think I tried to load it once, and it worked( rather not) as I expected. I have a second non-MMU mk3s+ that I do tpu on. it's kind of a pain not be be able to easily do tpu on the MMU enabled printer but I've gotten used to it. I've preordered the MK4 upgrade kits for the two printers and I'm not sure if I'm going to bother keeping the MMU on there. When the kits arrive I'll decide. Currently printing all the MK4 parts to have them ready.
After the MMU topic comes up again, I would also like to contribute my opinion.I bought a MMU, but actually it is pretty useless for the actual purpose!What works mostly is a multicolor print with identical material. But even here there are 2 points to consider:
- increased material consumption and time requirement because of the wipe tower.
- Material change not reliable; unattended printing overnight for several hours often goes wrongFurther problems:
- Unsuitable for flexible filament; the risk of jamming is significantly increased
- my actual idea of printing solid and soluble filament at the same time doesn't actually work at all. There is always contamination/mixing after the material change, which makes the 3D object unstable
- another idea, to print solid and flexible filament at the same time for one part, actually doesn't work reliably eitherso I use the MMU actually only because of convenience, the 5 most frequently used materials are inserted and I can select the filament by menu at the start of printing.
RE: Prusa Delays
My going to quote each post so in summary:
I am extremely doubtful that there will ever be a MMU3 capability for the XL. It’s a tool changer for a reason.
In my personal experience, the MMU2S has been very reliable. I recently completed a 4 day ~ 900 tool change print of a Boeing CST-100 Starliner spacecraft at maximum build volume. Only 1 intervention. That said, it’s lightly modded: Revo, almost all parts were reprinted in Atomic black Carbon Fibre PETG, I have the Festo input mod and I use the RMU3 Filament Buffer coupled to a RepBox.
Since I have gotten my MMU2S up, I have not printed using my Palette 2S Pro on my Prusa Mini. That will removed and sold after the XL 5 tool head comes in. The MMU2S might also be retired then as well.
RE: Prusa Delays
On the MMU, I was mostly interested in functional prints and supports. Since the MMU was launched, the slicers ability to do supports has really improved, almost to the point that separate material/soluble support isn’t needed as much- thought printing supports out of expensive CF filled material makes me cringe- is it worse than the material lost to an MMU purge block?
The change filament at height is also pretty cool, and to most people they don’t see the ‘trick’- but even my wife was impressed with some prints I made using that technique.
The slicer support sophistication and the color by layer have definitely reduced the need for the MMU.
If anything, moving forward, I’d want a pellet extruder or an extruder that takes 10+ filaments for ‘color-on-demand’. The ability to read pressure in the nozzle definately makes the pellet thing more likely- and would be a real differentiator.
RE: Prusa Delays
On the MMU, I was mostly interested in functional prints and supports. Since the MMU was launched, the slicers ability to do supports has really improved, almost to the point that separate material/soluble support isn’t needed as much- thought printing supports out of expensive CF filled material makes me cringe- is it worse than the material lost to an MMU purge block?
Given how much you have to flush between materials (if you do not only change colours but truly material) to get the other one truly out of the nozzle, I doubt that material efficiency could ever be a factor in favour of the MMU. The Purge block will be always worse than eg organic supports.
I think the one application the MMU is really making sense is for multicoloured coasters signs and labelled casings. With the MMU you can print them comfortably upside down for a completely flat and smooth surface. Without dozens of manual filament changes within layers. Due to the limited layers with changes also the waste of material and time is low.
Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1, Voron 2.4
RE:
I am extremely doubtful that there will ever be a MMU3 capability for the XL. It’s a tool changer for a reason.
Well. XL and Mk4 have basically the same hotend. If you need the other heads for various nozzle types/diameters or technical materials, it would be nice to have a toolhead dedicated for 5-color painting the shell (thinking of RC planes and such). All it takes is to carry over the communication part between printer and MMU from Mk4, and they already share the same code base. As far as I know there's no real limit on the number of tools you can configure in Prusaslicer? Someone might just do it sooner or later.
Edit: It just occured to me you could do the MMU colour change / purge while printing with another toolhead (i.e. dump the filament in a bucket). You could potentially get rid of the time loss.
RE: Prusa Delays
I aprreiate the time taken from others to post why there not happy, however slighty confused:
- What issues with the XL are you seeing other post?
- The MMU works (we have one), granted it suffers from minor issues like when the filament pull back as a strand OR end of spool so its super curled, however it does work
- We use the slicer 2.5, it slices, so not sure what is worse?
I understand your no longer interested in Prusa, however you feed back would assist them in making it better... that being said, i do agree the XL and Mk4 launch were both very bad, i believe most of that can be glued to the pandemic, we are seeing major issues (still) with supply and workers, this was not good for the whole planet.
Many Thanks
RE: Prusa Delays
Prusa run their operations of their printers. I saw a review of the XL where someone was throwing shade at the continued use of 3D printed parts in the printer. Frankly to me, it better have 3D printed parts…
I think the MMU has always dewelled in the suburbs of Prusa’s mind because they didn’t have any production parts made with it. If they had production requiring the smooth and reliable operating of an MMU, they would have been forced to address all the gremlins in it.
But as the main issue of running operations and production on PR printers, I was wondering if Prusa has ever put out stats on the percentage of successful prints and the mean time between failures (breakage) on printers. Considering that the same printers can probably be just turning out a single ‘print’ per lifetime, the number should be fairly high. I have three PR printers (2 mini/1 MK3-MMU2) and I consider that the minimum to have at least one printer up and running. Something always seems to be happening to have at least one on ‘injured reserve’.
I'm generally surprised how many seem to base their businesses on PR machines. It always seemed totally obvious to me that they are targeting R&D (limited prototyping), education and hobbyists. Maybe also non-critical business applications like model building or signage. A certain willingness to tinker seems to be a prerequisite.
RE: Prusa Delays
I'm generally surprised how many seem to base their businesses on PR machines. It always seemed totally obvious to me that they are targeting R&D (limited prototyping), education and hobbyists. Maybe also non-critical business applications like model building or signage. A certain willingness to tinker seems to be a prerequisite.
It's cheap scalable capacity. I get a bunch of MK4's fully outfitted for under $1000 each. Assume their useful life is 3 years. Assume I get 300 printing days per year. Assume I can get 4 prints of 6 hours each every day, including loading & unloading time, spool change, & maintenance. My machine cost per part is $0.28. With injection molding, the break-even cost for parts of similar size doesn't occur until around 200,000 parts. And those parts will all be identical design from the same mold.
Whatever you find to do with your hands, do with all your might!
RE: Prusa Delays
Alright, I'm just here to complain for 5 seconds. And then complain again for another 5 seconds.
I wish my XL order would just ship already.
I don't have enough room for the XL.
Complaints over. The suspense and dread is killing me 😛
RE: Prusa Delays
There have been very few people posting about their XL, but I see that as probably a good thing. I received mine, and since I wasn't the first to order it, nor am I the luckiest man in the world, I'm going to assume there are hundreds of others in people's hands by now. The lack of posts complaining suggests most are probably working pretty well, wouldn't you think?
Now we have the release finally of the XL but try and find information about it, as best I can tell only 4 people actually have one out in the wild, and as expected they have many problems, I canceled my order,
I do not think this. in fact I think the software is very incomplete and I thing the unit leaves a lot to be desired as well I thing Prusa has established a smoke and mirrors campaign for the sheeple. They hoped and were right that you would take this point of view.
RE: Prusa Delays
Yeah, I guess it's this thing where no matter what the result is, some will twist it to some kind of sky-is-falling-horror, or better yet, conspiracy theories. I presume that all of the popular youtubers that say they're waiting for their XL really have them, but are secretly withholding information because it's all negative.
There have been very few people posting about their XL, but I see that as probably a good thing. I received mine, and since I wasn't the first to order it, nor am I the luckiest man in the world, I'm going to assume there are hundreds of others in people's hands by now. The lack of posts complaining suggests most are probably working pretty well, wouldn't you think?
Now we have the release finally of the XL but try and find information about it, as best I can tell only 4 people actually have one out in the wild, and as expected they have many problems, I canceled my order,
I do not think this. in fact I think the software is very incomplete and I thing the unit leaves a lot to be desired as well I thing Prusa has established a smoke and mirrors campaign for the sheeple. They hoped and were right that you would take this point of view.