Prusa Delays  

RE: Prusa Delays

There is a LOT more that would be needing to test, I would submit that the tool change is the last, and counter intuitively, least complex.  Once you solve the single tool head operation, tool changing is fairly straightforward, and is mostly in the slicer.  

1. Prep for tool change
2. Heat new tool head
3. Retract filament and park current toolhead
4. pickup new toolhead once hot
5. purge
6. resume print

A lot of this function is currently implemented in the "swap filament" ability of the MK3S+ and the Mini+.

RE: Prusa Delays

There is a LOT of new hardware behind at least 4 of those functions and need tested extensively. I'm not sure I'd call it less complex.

Posted by: @win-j

There is a LOT more that would be needing to test, I would submit that the tool change is the last, and counter intuitively, least complex.  Once you solve the single tool head operation, tool changing is fairly straightforward, and is mostly in the slicer.  

1. Prep for tool change
2. Heat new tool head
3. Retract filament and park current toolhead
4. pickup new toolhead once hot
5. purge
6. resume print

A lot of this function is currently implemented in the "swap filament" ability of the MK3S+ and the Mini+.

 

RE: Prusa Delays

True, but how much of that functionality is open to user intervention?  Beta testing is to get people not involved in development to try to find gaps and flaws.  The tool change function does not have a user input save for, hypothetically, a swap filament command from the front panel.  Joseph stated at the introduction over a year ago that internal testing had performed an enormous number of tool changes.  Being that the speed of the tool change is being increased demonstrates that the functionality is complete and is being optimized.  

The machine has been through several iterative cycles since announcement.  Testing isn't the last thing, its performed all along the development cycle.  The Beta (this is my opinion, as I am not involved nor have any info) is to collect info on the delivery / setup and initial workings of the machine in users hands.  Its not the first test of the fully integrated system.

This machine shares a common design base with the AFS in terms of the motion system.  That motion system had months of real-world run-time at the Expo in Dubai. 

RE: Prusa Delays

I don't disagree 🙂 end users always end up finding a lot of edge cases, regardless of how complete a developer or designer believes their system to be complete and without issues. I don't doubt that the changing system has been tested extensively internally, but, it does also need extensive external testing. Just because it's tested internally doesn't mean external testing should be minimized or glossed over. Where I work, even small, nearly meaningless iterations on hardware or software trigger full testing, including out to our perpetual beta fleet.
If you look at any kind of real testing methodology from certification labs - while I don't expect Prusa to go for it - you can get an idea of what external vs internal testing can accomplish.

RE: Prusa Delays

The MMU2S is rather ‘straightforward’- but seems to have a low implementation rate with a high error rate.  Maybe this system is more fault tolerant- there is no need to tweak the ‘tips’ as much- but just the right cool down and start up procedures for all the possible different materials would be daunting.

Posted by: @selta

There is a LOT of new hardware behind at least 4 of those functions and need tested extensively. I'm not sure I'd call it less complex.

Posted by: @win-j

There is a LOT more that would be needing to test, I would submit that the tool change is the last, and counter intuitively, least complex.  Once you solve the single tool head operation, tool changing is fairly straightforward, and is mostly in the slicer.  

1. Prep for tool change
2. Heat new tool head
3. Retract filament and park current toolhead
4. pickup new toolhead once hot
5. purge
6. resume print

A lot of this function is currently implemented in the "swap filament" ability of the MK3S+ and the Mini+.

 

 

RE: Prusa Delays

No No No.  In all the new system development I have been involved in (which number to the hundreds of system), we require a test plan from the developer.  The test plan includes the testing methodology for all the functions of the new system, and that test plan is published along with the design documents.  No commercial manufacturer (that I know of) uses test plans, and Prusa certainly does not, at least in their beta testing.  The command "use the machine and find the bugs" isn't sufficient with a test plan, and the user might not be using a particular function.  I don't believe that Prusa has used test planning (noting the bugs in my I3MK3/s).  If they did, we should be able to see the test plans.  Prusa also has not any good mechanism for error and bug reporting and correcting.

I am not impressed with Prusa engineering and testing, but unless I want to spend thousands for a commercial printer, I guess this what I should expect.  Better engineering and testing documentation isn't all that expensive.

I am hoping at the price point of the XL that Prusa will have done some of this, but I fear not.  I fear that even when the machine goes into production, and I get one, I will still be doing beta testing on the machine.

The only reason that I am still in the queue for an XL is that I am intrigued with the advanced capabilities (including the tool changer).  I am eagerly waiting for actual user reports to come out and bugs (and yes, there will be some) to be fixed.

Steve

I have fixed some of the problems with my MK3/S, but not all.

RE: Prusa Delays

Agreed. Testing comes down to discipline and real engineering, more than any expense (well, time-expense, which can lead to real dollar expense if you have to iterate many times due to problems etc).

Posted by: @steve-4

No No No.  In all the new system development I have been involved in (which number to the hundreds of system), we require a test plan from the developer.  The test plan includes the testing methodology for all the functions of the new system, and that test plan is published along with the design documents.  No commercial manufacturer (that I know of) uses test plans, and Prusa certainly does not, at least in their beta testing.  The command "use the machine and find the bugs" isn't sufficient with a test plan, and the user might not be using a particular function.  I don't believe that Prusa has used test planning (noting the bugs in my I3MK3/s).  If they did, we should be able to see the test plans.  Prusa also has not any good mechanism for error and bug reporting and correcting.

I am not impressed with Prusa engineering and testing, but unless I want to spend thousands for a commercial printer, I guess this what I should expect.  Better engineering and testing documentation isn't all that expensive.

I am hoping at the price point of the XL that Prusa will have done some of this, but I fear not.  I fear that even when the machine goes into production, and I get one, I will still be doing beta testing on the machine.

The only reason that I am still in the queue for an XL is that I am intrigued with the advanced capabilities (including the tool changer).  I am eagerly waiting for actual user reports to come out and bugs (and yes, there will be some) to be fixed.

Steve

I have fixed some of the problems with my MK3/S, but not all.

RE:

@selta

So your saying if someone is unhappy with the software they shouldn't mention it? Because if someone is a professional and they are having an issue with the software, I would consider that very helpful. Maybe you just mean if someones opinion doesn't align with yours, they just shouldn't post their opinion?

RE:

Posted by: @rd

@selta

 

So your saying if someone is unhappy with the software they shouldn't mention it? Because if someone is a professional and they are having an issue with the software, I would consider that very helpful. Maybe you just mean if someones opinion doesn't align with yours, they just shouldn't post their opinion?

Where did I ever say either of those things? Are you conflating me with someone else perhaps?
Testing needs to have full coverage - hardware and software. If there's issues, with either, it needs flagged to Prusa in whatever their tracking system is for things like that.
My day job is working on hardware (down to firmware at times), software on top of it, and everything in between. One doesn't work well without the other. I'm really unsure where you got the idea that I was supporting anything along the lines of someone being unhappy with the software stack shouldn't mention it.
In fact, I even said this (bold for emphasis):

Posted by: @selta

I don't disagree 🙂 end users always end up finding a lot of edge cases, regardless of how complete a developer or designer believes their system to be complete and without issues. I don't doubt that the changing system has been tested extensively internally, but, it does also need extensive external testing. Just because it's tested internally doesn't mean external testing should be minimized or glossed over. Where I work, even small, nearly meaningless iterations on hardware or software trigger full testing, including out to our perpetual beta fleet.
If you look at any kind of real testing methodology from certification labs - while I don't expect Prusa to go for it - you can get an idea of what external vs internal testing can accomplish.

Prusa Delays . Hoping for a Januray and February Shipping

I've been lurking on this forum for over a year.  I am excited that the XL maybe shipping soon??  This will be my first 3D printer. I have experience with CAD and CAM software mostly Fusion 360 and Sketch up and have been doing a lot of 3D scanning over the last year. I hope these skill will help tame the learning curve for this machine .

Are will still on track for Jan-Feb 2023 shipping? I ordered on Nov 18 2021 602AM MST so hopeful mine will be one of the "earlier" ones shipped out.

Any advice on the add-ons I should order with this machine would be great.  thanks

RE: Prusa Delays

Supposedly Prusa is going to update folks this month on XL status. Prusa's track record for keeping their word on these updates for XL is... lackluster though (ranging from completely missed, to inadequate, to full of lots of information). With some good luck they'll update us later this month and we'll see what they say then.

Add-ons is... a wild and rather substantial topic that might be best served by other existing threads in the forums, or by starting a new one.

Posted by: @canadiansheetmetal

I've been lurking on this forum for over a year.  I am excited that the XL maybe shipping soon??  This will be my first 3D printer. I have experience with CAD and CAM software mostly Fusion 360 and Sketch up and have been doing a lot of 3D scanning over the last year. I hope these skill will help tame the learning curve for this machine .

Are will still on track for Jan-Feb 2023 shipping? I ordered on Nov 18 2021 602AM MST so hopeful mine will be one of the "earlier" ones shipped out.

Any advice on the add-ons I should order with this machine would be great.  thanks

RE: Prusa Delays

I have to think that commercial orders are closer to march, if not April shipping.  Who knows what shipping  order and speed they will follow.  I’m thinking that most people are going to see theirs this summer.  They are already signaling that multi extrusion may not be a Day One reality….

Posted by: @canadiansheetmetal

I've been lurking on this forum for over a year.  I am excited that the XL maybe shipping soon??  This will be my first 3D printer. I have experience with CAD and CAM software mostly Fusion 360 and Sketch up and have been doing a lot of 3D scanning over the last year. I hope these skill will help tame the learning curve for this machine .

Are will still on track for Jan-Feb 2023 shipping? I ordered on Nov 18 2021 602AM MST so hopeful mine will be one of the "earlier" ones shipped out.

Any advice on the add-ons I should order with this machine would be great.  thanks

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @win-j

Global Supply Chain is still a mess.  

This is so true.  B+R is taking more than a year to fulfill servo and controls components orders.  It is insane.

RE: Prusa Delays

20.01.23 -  no blogpost, nothing since the last " Beta Units will be shipped"  in this time bambu grows bigger and stronger. 
I´m very disappointed about Prusa.... and many more will be if the find out that the XL will be shipped with only 1 toolhead -  because the beta units were too ( from the 2 units you could see in the wild world) 
They should  make a statement in this  month or they will have more problems imo. 
As i can see in my FB Groups f.e. the ppl sell their mk3s to a Bambu ... 

RE: Prusa Delays

The chip shortage is a real thing.  If you don't believe it, just go to either mouser or digikey and look at the lead times on popular chips and mcu's.

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @dimprov

The chip shortage is a real thing.  If you don't believe it, just go to either mouser or digikey and look at the lead times on popular chips and mcu's.

Or try to find any raspberry pi...

RE: Prusa Delays

Prusa cited STM32 as their main chip they're having issues with. Where I work, we use those and 1-wire EEPROMs, both of which we're able to source in 20-24 weeks. And we're a pretty small customer. Prusa surely could negotiate more favorable terms than us.

RE: Prusa Delays

Same here.  I produce a product for hobbyists that measures load cell changes and records them to an SD card for interpretation.  I am having trouble getting many of the microcontrollers and processors.  The wait is horrible.  

Many of my colleagues who produce altimeters for rocket deployments cannot get parts either.  

Posted by: @selta

Prusa cited STM32 as their main chip they're having issues with. Where I work, we use those and 1-wire EEPROMs, both of which we're able to source in 20-24 weeks. And we're a pretty small customer. Prusa surely could negotiate more favorable terms than us.

RE: Prusa Delays

At least we're not dealing with some of the popular ASICs that are used in network gear. We're still getting 60+ week lead times on those 🙁 

RE: Prusa Delays

Posted by: @selta

At least we're not dealing with some of the popular ASICs that are used in network gear. We're still getting 60+ week lead times on those 🙁 

Question: is the delays in the infrastructure equipment or the client interface?