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Is there a good reason for the average?  

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RedDog
(@reddog-2)
Active Member
Is there a good reason for the average?

LOVE Prusa! Just put together my first MK3S+ kit and have been enjoying every minute of building and using it! With the exception of first layer calibration frustrations that is!

ANYway ... When I purchased my kit I also got on pre-order list for XL after watching 3D printing nerd that is haha.  I later found out the XL will NOT support multi-material... Well, not on one head (I.E. No Multi-Material Unit for it), and it causes me to ask the question: Why should I purchase the XL?  I WANT to.... BUT can I really benefit from it?

If you need the size, sure, but I don't need the extra volume day-to-day. That gets me thinking about an IDEX, which would have more capability in some areas (ie 2 prints) and less in others (2 tool max, etc) and be around the same cost. Could add a 3rd party multi-material kit to an IDEX, and get close to everything, minus a bell and whistle or two.

 

I WANT to find a good reason to "pull the trigger" on my order when we get there and my preorder position is reached, but I'm really having a hard time finding a place where it makes sense, as someone who's not in a production environment and is only using printing as a hobby, learning experience, and for utilitarian personal uses.

 

Does ANYONE have any thoughts to share? Is the an extreme attempt at logical justification landing on "just because" or are there good hobbiest reasons I'm not thinking of yet? 

I hope to hear!!

 

 

Posted : 04/05/2022 10:35 pm
fuchsr
(@fuchsr)
Noble Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

If you have to think about it, the best advice is probably, don't buy it. It's quite an investment and you should have a specific need for it, otherwise I'd spend the money on a other Mk3S... If you want multi material capabilities you'll have to spend the money on a multi head configuration.  For me that has been perhaps the main selling point. I don't need the volume. In fact, I'd rather have a smaller footprint. But I'm naive enough to hope that the Multi head configuration of the XL will finally give me what the MMU and Palette promised but didn't deliver on: a reliable multi filament option. 

And yeah, I'm sure there will be teething pain with it but at least conceptually it feels like the better approach than the cut and splice approached of the MMU and Palette. 

Posted : 04/05/2022 11:08 pm
Eric E
(@eric-e)
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

Idex is silly. Just buy a 2nd printer. Idex means one hiccup spoils two prints. 

Dual extruders make sense for like soluble supports. 

And, I expect more tool heads to appear in the future. Dual extruder head, pick-n-place heads, etc are surely in the pipeline. And no reason why an MMU could not be attached to one or all tool heads.  A bit of a puzzle for the slicer, perhaps , and not sure it would anything more than a good demo  

early bird here with a deposit. Checkbook ready when they are. This is going to be fun. 

Your deposit is refundable. Somebody else will take up the slack, no worries. You can always order again later. 

Don’t trust forum advice.

Posted : 04/05/2022 11:22 pm
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

Not sure I'd catagorize Idex as silly, for one it's an excellent multi material entry level printer and by the way swaps filament way quicker and more reliably than an MMU (if the multiple post re MMU problems are to be believed) albeeit with only two materials.

Posted : 05/05/2022 10:28 am
Eric E
(@eric-e)
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

 

Posted by: @towlerg

Not sure I'd catagorize Idex as silly, for one it's an excellent multi material entry level printer and by the way swaps filament way quicker and more reliably than an MMU (if the multiple post re MMU problems are to be believed) albeeit with only two materials.

 

I think you and I agree, just not on terminology.  A duel extruder, like an Ultimaker is quite clever and useful, though not quite an "entry level printer".  Independent Dual Extruders, aka IDEX, which are two heads floating around on their own is usually for making two separate prints on the same bed at the same time - which I still find to be silly.

Don’t trust forum advice.

Posted : 05/05/2022 10:38 am
Stefan
(@stefan-3)
Trusted Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

have been enjoying every minute of building and using it! With the exception of first layer calibration frustrations that is!

So, then this is your justification for ordering it 😀 

Prusa promises "always perfect first layer" due to the new load cell sensor in the new extruder.

It has the potential to eliminate many failed prints, because a bad first layer and bad adhesion is the root cause for failures later in the print.

Posted : 05/05/2022 1:26 pm
RedDog liked
Eric E
(@eric-e)
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

 

Posted by: @stefan-3

It has the potential to eliminate many failed prints, because a bad first layer and bad adhesion is the root cause for failures later in the print.

The root cause of bad first layers and bad adhesion is the failure of the operator to keep his/her build plate clean.  If Prusa shipped soap, water, and a scrub pad with each printer, forum traffic would be cut in half.  I don't use IPA, I don't use acetone.  I use soap and hot water before every print.  Just a minute or two, and works a treat.

Don’t trust forum advice.

Posted : 05/05/2022 1:33 pm
Neophyl liked
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Famed Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

I agree with Eric in all his points about bed cleanliness and adhesion.  Forum traffic would be much less if people just followed the same advice as is posted in so many threads here about using detergent and hot water cleans. 
The one minor addition I would add is that the frequency of having to clean your plate is inverse to how often you touch it with your fingers.  If you are obsessive about not touching it then you can go weeks between cleanings.

I don't think that basic fact is going to change for the XL.  No matter how good it really will be about putting down that first layer if the surface has oils/grease on from your fingers then it will detach eventually.

Posted : 05/05/2022 2:06 pm
fuchsr liked
RedDog
(@reddog-2)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

I am keeping up on everyone's posts here and thank you all! 

@eric-e - I love how you give a good reply and at the bottom of your post your signature says not to listen to forum advice LMAO. 

@fuchsr - I was surprised to hear MMU support would not be baked in... I was going to purchase the two head XL model, and try to get more filaments on 1 print with MMU, BUT Prusa support rep confirmed in email MMU support will not be built in, stating the five head model gets you the same capability (not specifically stated is a guess it's likely because of all the MMU problems and not being able to engineer it away)

 

All - I'm not worried about $$ or about Prusa not being easy going about it.  I am commonly an early-adopter of new technologies, and am okay with experiencing some growing pains too... But if I don't "make new cool stuff" with it, or.... Something.... It gets harder to feel like I'm not just burning cash in a fire pit haha!

 

So far, my justification (I THINK - I thought this up while doing a print the other day).. If the XL will have better bed adhesion without the live-z adjust thanks to the load cell it could be worth it for that alone!! Now just about every other print I have to cancel 2 to 4 times, sometimes tweak Z, etc, before being able to get a good first layer, that's worth thousands of dollars right there. It's the one thing that's frustrating the heck out of me, no matter what I do I always seem to have to tweak it even without changing filaments, even with cleaning, wiping, soap, IPA, none of it matters... Oh and EVERYTIME I reached the end of my rope, and then try to replicate the problem documenting my steps and taking pictures and video along the way to send to support, then that's the print that works LOL, only extra step "documentation and ready to throw out window".

 

Anyway, thanks for the conversation, happy to keep it going too 🙂 

 

Red

 

Posted : 05/05/2022 3:19 pm
RedDog
(@reddog-2)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

 

Posted by: @neophyl

I agree with Eric in all his points about bed cleanliness and adhesion.  

The one minor addition I would add is that the frequency of having to clean your plate is inverse to how often you touch it with your fingers.  

Yes, and that maybe true, but I've been so crazy about it, I don't remove a print without gloves on now! And still, I have issues. I even took a brand new plate from the factory, did not touch it, still, bad adhesion. Calibration, perfect, adhesion of print, sucks, try again and again, eventually it sticks.  I usually reach out to Prusa support for issues, mainly due to being new and having that option, but everytime I document, that instance works, and my steps do not change. 

I'm sure with most it's oils on the bed, I'm just not sure I'm experiencing that exact issue, and every remediation and preventive measure has been tried. Maybe it will get better with time too. 

 

R

 

 

 

Posted : 05/05/2022 3:28 pm
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

I think you and I agree, just not on terminology.  A duel extruder, like an Ultimaker is quite clever and useful, though not quite an "entry level printer".  Independent Dual Extruders, aka IDEX, which are two heads floating around on their own is usually for making two separate prints on the same bed at the same time - which I still find to be silly.

No we both agree what an Idex printer is. If you look at the geometry you'll be surprised how big an area can be "covered" by both heads. The simplicity of using a single X carriage (and certainly no complex tool head swap) makes Idex very affordable. I would certainly agree with the silliness of Idex if it could only do duplicate and mirror printing, for me its the two colour/material option that makes it attractive.  

Posted : 06/05/2022 11:59 am
RedDog liked
RedDog
(@reddog-2)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

 

Posted by: @eric-e

Idex is silly. Just buy a 2nd printer. Idex means one hiccup spoils two prints. 

Dual extruders make sense for like soluble supports. 

I hear two different things here.  IDEX is only good for printing two at once.  Then I hear a completely different case, that IDEX is good for printing one print with two filaments (you specifically call out soluble supports, but it could just as well be a second color or a different material).

 

My understanding of IDEX is that it works very well for both of these use cases, although I have no need for duplicate printing, I can just wait, it's the multiple filaments that I'm most interested at this point. 

So .. WHY would a two head XL be any better/wiser/more efficient/simpler/some-other-benefit  than simply buying and IDEX? What are the delineating use cases between the two? I'm sure for some use cases XL is a better solution and for others IDEX is a better solution... I'm just not sure where those differences are. I suppose that's one of the big questions I'm trying to answer to decide if I go with a two-head XL, or if I go with IDEX.

 

For multicolor support, I'll probably have to purchase a third party device that operates like the MMU.  I just don't see a reason why I should go through the expense of three more printheads, just to print other colors.

 

AFAIK, the notion of supporting different nozzle sizes on the different heads is not expected to be available at launch and has not been confirmed as ever being supported in the future (has it?)

 

Also, the idea that the heads can be used for a wide variety of other purposes has been hinted, but reading between the lines I'm also hearing that we're expecting third parties to take up the slack there and invent new and creative things to attach to the other heads.

 

Plus, would switching heads with every color change which could be multiple times per layer, just be, slow and wear more on the printer overall (vs relying on MMU like tech)?

 

R

Posted : 07/05/2022 4:21 pm
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

So .. WHY would a two head XL be any better/wiser/more efficient/simpler/some-other-benefit  than simply buying and IDEX? What are the delineating use cases between the two? I'm sure for some use cases XL is a better solution and for others IDEX is a better solution... I'm just not sure where those differences are. I suppose that's one of the big questions I'm trying to answer to decide if I go with a two-head XL, or if I go with IDEX.

Presumably the option of adding more heads to the XL.

AFAIK, the notion of supporting different nozzle sizes on the different heads is not expected to be available at launch and has not been confirmed as ever being supported in the future (has it?)

I guess that is a slicer issue? maybe not.

Plus, would switching heads with every color change which could be multiple times per layer, just be, slow and wear more on the printer overall (vs relying on MMU like tech)?

I would imagine that an filament change time for an XL type mechanism would loosely the same as an MMU.

 

I guess the principle downside of Idex in two colur mode is the reduction in max printable area.

Posted : 08/05/2022 10:38 am
Eric E
(@eric-e)
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

So much unknown.  IDEX is just chit-chat, because the XL isn't, and won't be anytime soon.  I don't want one, and I have a very early deposit on an XL.

Hopefully, somebodies are busting butt on the slicer. 

I plan, at the moment, to take an XL with just 2 heads.  I want to see that work, and learn about other stuff in the pipeline.  A dual extruder head would give me an Ultimaker when I want one, and the standard head a jumbo I3 when I want one.  More heads are not making sense to me at the moment.  A print requiring all 5 heads sounds just as fun as an MMU, with only different points of failure.  Or 5 heads loaded with different nozzle sizes, and different filaments, for single filament prints, well, that's a Revo with a filament unload/load.  My check book makes funny faces on that one.

I am betting that there are some really cool tool heads in the pipeline somewhere.  A pick-n-place would be awesome.  5 axis extruder... why not?  Light duty router?

Don’t trust forum advice.

Posted : 08/05/2022 10:41 pm
RedDog
(@reddog-2)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

 

Posted by: @eric-e

So much unknown.  IDEX is just chit-chat, because the XL isn't, and won't be anytime soon.  I don't want one, and I have a very early deposit on an XL.

Hopefully, somebodies are busting butt on the slicer. 

I.... Don't understand. What's IDEX is just chit-chat?  Isn't it a proven technology that's been around for quite a long time (while XL doesn't actually exist yet?)  

I also don't understand "... and won't be anytime soon". What won't be?  Just confused is all... Maybe it's a wording thing or is my IQ just low this time of night?

I'm also in line for a 2 head model at the moment BUT if they release other excellent tooling heads kon release day and let me pick anything for the others, I could be talked up to five 🙂 

 

Yes, many other heads: Dont forget lasers too 🙂 

Posted : 09/05/2022 3:45 am
Eric E
(@eric-e)
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

Oh, come on.  Chit-chat in that the XL, which doesn't even exist yet, and is unlikely to become IDEX anytime soon.  This is a Prusa forum, and the topic is XL which is not IDEX.

If you want an IDEX, get one.  Such that they exist, people are buying them, so it must be serving a purpose, and somebody must be happy with them.

Sure, I would buy a laser tool head.

Don’t trust forum advice.

Posted : 09/05/2022 10:14 am
towlerg
(@towlerg)
Noble Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

Light duty router?

Seriously?

 

I think the discussion about Idex started because someone was looking for a two colour alternative.

This is a Prusa forum, and the topic is XL which is not IDEX.

Oh no, the forum police have struck. Any thread which doesn't consider alternatives is less than optimal.

Posted : 09/05/2022 12:01 pm
RedDog liked
Robert22
(@robert22)
New Member
RE: Is there a good reason for the average?

So .. WHY would a two head XL be any better/wiser/more efficient/simpler/some-other-benefit  than simply buying and IDEX? What are the delineating use cases between the two? I'm sure for some use cases XL is a better solution and for others IDEX is a better solution... I'm just not sure where those differences are. I suppose that's one of the big questions I'm trying to answer to decide if I go with a two-head XL, or if I go with IDEX.

Posted by: @reddog-2

LOVE Prusa! Just put together my first MK3S+ kit and have been enjoying every minute of building and using it! With the exception of first layer calibration frustrations that is!

ANYway ... When I purchased my kit I also got on pre-order list for XL after watching 3D printing nerd that is haha.  I later found out the XL will NOT support multi-material... Well, not on one head (I.E. No Multi-Material Unit for it), and it causes me to ask the question: Why should I purchase the XL?  I WANT to.... BUT can I really benefit from it?

If you need the size, sure, but I don't need the extra volume day-to-day. That gets me thinking about an IDEX, which would have more capability in some areas (ie 2 prints) and less in others (2 tool max, etc) and be around the same cost. Could add a 3rd party multi-material kit to an IDEX, and get close to everything, minus a bell and whistle or two.

 

I WANT to find a good reason to "pull the trigger" on my order when we get there and my preorder position is reached, but I'm really having a hard time finding a place where it makes sense, as someone who's not in a production environment and is only using printing as a hobby, learning experience, and for utilitarian personal uses.

 

Does ANYONE have any thoughts to share? Is the an extreme attempt at logical justification landing on "just because" or are there good hobbiest reasons I'm not thinking of yet? 

I hope to hear!!

 

 

 

Posted : 09/05/2022 5:52 pm
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