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HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Ok all you more experienced guys/gals, please don't shoot the messenger, but I want to know if the new XL will or can be configured to use metal for printing.

I have never printed or owned a printer, so this is an honest out of the gate question and I have a project I want to accomplish that I'm pretty sure will need metal for strength up to 300lbs holding capacity and that would be the maximum

Thanks

Posted : 30/11/2021 6:00 pm
ChefBenni
(@chefbenni)
Active Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Hey there,

no problem. To your question, the Prusa XL will for sure be able to print metal FDM filament from BASF or Marforged like any other FDM printer on the market. But to use that printed green part you need an 60k€ washing and sintering oven, without these the printer part is basically useless and weaker than PLA material. Also you should consider metal filament is quite expensive and 3 spools of filament will be the price of a new Prusa XL! I also doubt Prusa will support the metal filament with all it's shrinkage etc. so you need to do the process development yourself with your used oven.

Cheers, Benni

Posted : 01/12/2021 8:04 am
Thejiral
(@thejiral)
Reputable Member
RE:

Chefbenni said it all already regarding metal. What I was wondering if maybe PEEK could be good enough for the task as well or not. 
Not that the XL will be capable of printing PEEK, nor that this material is much or any cheaper than those engineering metal filaments but an industrial grade 3D printer well suited for printing PEEK is probably cheaper to get access to than all that washing and sintering equipment. 

But maybe someone from the field can judge that better than a layman like me. 

PS: If the parts in question can be cut out from a steel plate of course laser-cutting or CNC would probably be the best thing to go for. 

This post was modified 9 months ago by Thejiral

Mk3s MMU2s, Voron 0.1

Posted : 01/12/2021 9:41 am
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Thank you ChefBenni, and now the journey begins......if you have the time, in brief, what is a "60k€ washing and sintering oven" If you don't have the time that's ok too, as I am just beginning this trek

Posted : 01/12/2021 5:03 pm
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?
Thanks thejiral,
 
Hmmm, PEEK huh. Well I am lost even when answered lol. This seems to be a long and winding query. Would a PEEK printer be as easy to use for a novice? After a simple searchterm "PEEK 3D printer" I got this one: https://machineshark.com/products/creatbot-f430-peek-desktop-3d-printer?currency=USD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&msclkid=a981d205a4be182b0fc9b3a20f15f6cb#description
Posted by: @thejiral

Chefbenni said it all already regarding metal. What I was wondering if maybe PEEK could be good enough for the task as well or not. 
Not that the XL will be capable of printing PEEK, nor that this material is much or any cheaper than those engineering metal filaments but an industrial grade 3D printer well suited for printing PEEK is probably cheaper to get access to than all that washing and sintering equipment. 

 

But maybe someone from the field can judge that better than a layman like me. 

 

PS: If the parts in question can be cut out from a steel plate of course laser-cutting or CNC would probably be the best thing to go for. 

 

 

Posted : 01/12/2021 5:11 pm
ChefBenni
(@chefbenni)
Active Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

It would help a lot if you could tell us a bit more about what you wnat to print and if you just want a one off piece or need to more often print strong parts. Also what your budged is would help with the decision.

Metal 3D-printing is super expensive and not even close to be cheap. Basically you can buy a cheap Porsche with the money needed. You can powder 3D-print with EOS machines 150000$ or you could use a cheap printer like the Prusa, use 800$ metal filament, have access to a 10000$ washing station to get rid of the binder in the metal print and then a 60000$ argon sinter oven to "bake" the freshly washed part. These are your two options if you want a printer.

But if you just need 2-3 parts order them from a online printing service for 300-500$ each. If they are easy in geometry you could also just ask a CNC service for the same price to mill it for you.

About PEEK printing, also a super hassle and not easy to do. The linked printer from you, is not even close in capable to print peek, just a typical fake. +10000$ is the price for a PEEK printer.

If you have time and knowledge in engineering you can build your own PEEK printer.

Posted : 01/12/2021 7:08 pm
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Well I could tell you only that a product I want to pursue I would sell for perhaps $10-$20 depending on the design. So at the prices you mentioned it doesn't sound like metal printing will work. Let me then ask, if there is another material that can withstand up to 300lbs of longitudinal stretch at the very most, without breaking?

These items are normally made of pressed stainless, are not flat or square in any sense, and that may be the only way this can be done. Just trying to break the norm at a lower cost of production. Clearly metal printing is not there yet for my intention

Posted : 02/12/2021 12:15 am
ChefBenni
(@chefbenni)
Active Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Ooooookay. Just as a quick hint, without knowing what exactly you want to print, and a technical drawing, dimensions etc. it is impossible to say any details. Every material can take up to 300lbs just the ammount of material is important. So the stress per square inch is important for a material choise. Also the kind of load, static or dynamic is important, is creepage a case too? How is the needed temperature? UV stable too?

But a important note is here 3D-printing will never ever be cheaper than regular production methods in mid-high volume. Vor one offs to low volume it is absolutely ok where prices per piece can be high but tooling cost can be saved.

Best example is Prusa itself. Super complex plastic parts for the printer, each piece would need a complex injection molding tool for 40-80k$ and then each piece would be less than 10ct. So you need to produce a lot of pieces to compensate for the tooling. If you print them each piece will be 1-2$ but can be super complex. So in that case if you produce lass than 50k pieces 3D-printing is cheaper. But there are more books and resources out there which explain this topic a lot better and in more detail.

Posted : 02/12/2021 7:01 am
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

I see now how important the details are. Well obviously I don't wish to share an idea that I am working on, but let me get more specific. The product is 1/32" thick, from 1 1/2" - 2 3/4" in width and from 3" - 9" in length and is of a wavy shape in stainless steel. It should not be able to flex much if at all, that's important to the function. I'm sorry I do not have the head to calculate the stress per sq in. I can tell you that of a sudden the stress can go from 4-12lbs to 300lbs, thus load would be dynamic in reference.

Injection molding requires a $40-$80k die/tooling cost? Forget that then since my numbers are too low to cover that cost as is my sales projections at this time

Which by your explanation, which I very much appreciate, production would be far less than 50k pieces

I hope this added info might help in determining the method

Thanks so very much @chefbennie

 

Posted by: @chefbenni

Ooooookay. Just as a quick hint, without knowing what exactly you want to print, and a technical drawing, dimensions etc. it is impossible to say any details. Every material can take up to 300lbs just the ammount of material is important. So the stress per square inch is important for a material choise. Also the kind of load, static or dynamic is important, is creepage a case too? How is the needed temperature? UV stable too?

But a important note is here 3D-printing will never ever be cheaper than regular production methods in mid-high volume. Vor one offs to low volume it is absolutely ok where prices per piece can be high but tooling cost can be saved.

Best example is Prusa itself. Super complex plastic parts for the printer, each piece would need a complex injection molding tool for 40-80k$ and then each piece would be less than 10ct. So you need to produce a lot of pieces to compensate for the tooling. If you print them each piece will be 1-2$ but can be super complex. So in that case if you produce lass than 50k pieces 3D-printing is cheaper. But there are more books and resources out there which explain this topic a lot better and in more detail.

 

Posted : 02/12/2021 5:33 pm
Diem
 Diem
(@diem)
Famed Member

The product is 1/32" thick, from 1 1/2" - 2 3/4" in width and from 3" - 9" in length and is of a wavy shape in stainless steel. It should not be able to flex much if at all, that's important to the function. I'm sorry I do not have the head to calculate the stress per sq in.

6400. Rather high, I somewhat doubt your upper figure.

I can tell you that of a sudden the stress can go from 4-12lbs to 300lbs, thus load would be dynamic in reference.

You might consider printing master moulds from which to impress casting moulds for simple foundry casting.   Stainless would be difficult but painted iron, especially if thicker, might suffice..?

Which grade of stainless are you replacing? 

This presumes the load variance is smooth and not shocks.

Cheerio,

Posted : 02/12/2021 6:25 pm
Dewey79
(@dewey79)
Honorable Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Where did you see this?  I asked Prusa Chat if the temperatures were going to be higher and they said wait until release announcements when the first XL's ship.

 

Posted : 03/12/2021 12:27 am
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

I'm not clear on the number you presented, 6400 but no, any ferrous metal cannot be used and thank you

Posted : 03/12/2021 12:41 am
Painted Futures
(@painted-futures)
Active Member
RE:

Re: the stress question, calculating it depends on how exactly your part will be loaded. If it's loaded in tension (ex. like a cable that is holding up a box from a crane), you can calculate tensile stress by dividing the tensile force by the area the force will be applied over. Using metric units, a peak load of 300 lbs = 1334 N, and assuming your 1/32" x 1.5" (0.79 x 38.1 mm) part will be hanging vertically, the static stress in the part will be 44 MPa. This is at the upper range of Fused Deposition Manufacturing / Fused Filament Fabrication capability, but it's still feasible without going to exotic (and expensive) materials like the PEEK and metal filaments mentioned already.

One issue you'd have to watch out for is that FDM parts do not have the same properties as isotropic injection-moulded or SLS-printed parts, so your FDM part may have to grow from the sizes you indicated to withstand the same stress. Another is that you specified that this part "should not be able to flex much if at all". Any material is going to deform at least a little under load, so you will have to define how much elongation or "flex" (bending deflection?) is acceptable, putting another constraint on your choices of materials. Finally, you said that your part is going to be sold for $10-20. That's going to be very challenging if your part needs to be made out of metal, since you said that its shape is "wavy" (thus making it unsuited to relatively cheap methods like sheet metal bending). You'll need to come up with a set of performance requirements for your product to determine material choice, including the factors that Benni mentioned in his third comment. If you can use a common FDM material, you could probably print economical parts using an affordable printer like a Prusa. 

If your part is not being loaded purely in tension and is being bent in some way, you will have to calculate the stress using a different method (that will probably involve calculating the area moment of inertia). At this point, depending on your time, budget, and comfort levels, you may want to sit down with some good textbooks on statics and dynamics or hire a materials engineer to work under NDA on your application.

This post was modified 8 months ago by Painted Futures
Posted : 04/12/2021 12:09 pm
Yveske
(@yveske)
Estimable Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Maybe have a look at EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining)

 

Having problems with bed adhesion every morning...

Posted : 30/12/2021 6:45 am
burtronix liked
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Yveske, I hit reply but it didn't load your name, maybe it does that once I reply.

Anyhow I got your meaning, but I don't understand nor will I ever, the math or engineering so it looks like go with a trial run of FDM, still haven't determined which one, or hire an engineer. Trial run seems more reasonable with my limited left brain abilities.

You said "Using metric units, a peak load of 300 lbs = 1334 N, and assuming your 1/32" x 1.5" (0.79 x 38.1 mm) part will be hanging vertically, the static stress in the part will be 44 MPa." Does this relate to an FDM material that would stand a good chance of withstanding the calcs you've done for me, and thank you for that.

You said "If your part is not being loaded purely in tension and is being bent in some way, you will have to calculate the stress using a different method (that will probably involve calculating the area moment of inertia)."  Stress will be applied in longitudinal tension, and a cross stress could occur at any angle upon immediate force. After reading your reaction, it sounds like I may have to allow for adding layers to strengthen the point at which both the applied tension and the angle of that tension occurs. Perhaps double the depth of layers. 

Advice on which might be the FDM material I would benefit the most as a prototype?  

 

Posted : 30/12/2021 4:52 pm
Yveske
(@yveske)
Estimable Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

@hear-2-learn You've got me confused with @painted-futures

Having problems with bed adhesion every morning...

Posted : 30/12/2021 5:41 pm
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Yveske, my apology. I'll reply to the correct button this time

Posted : 30/12/2021 5:47 pm
HEAR-2-Learn
(@hear-2-learn)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Painted Future,

I got your meaning, but I don't understand nor will I ever, the math or engineering so it looks like go with a trial run of FDM, still haven't determined which one, or hire an engineer. Trial run seems more reasonable with my limited left brain abilities.

You said "Using metric units, a peak load of 300 lbs = 1334 N, and assuming your 1/32" x 1.5" (0.79 x 38.1 mm) part will be hanging vertically, the static stress in the part will be 44 MPa." Does this relate to an FDM material that would stand a good chance of withstanding the calcs you've done for me, and thank you for that.

You said "If your part is not being loaded purely in tension and is being bent in some way, you will have to calculate the stress using a different method (that will probably involve calculating the area moment of inertia)." Stress will be applied in longitudinal tension, and a cross stress could occur at any angle upon immediate force. After reading your reaction, it sounds like I may have to allow for adding layers to strengthen the point at which both the applied tension and the angle of that tension occurs. Perhaps double the depth of layers.

Advice on which might be the FDM material I would benefit the most as a prototype?

Posted by: @painted-futures

Re: the stress question, calculating it depends on how exactly your part will be loaded. If it's loaded in tension (ex. like a cable that is holding up a box from a crane), you can calculate tensile stress by dividing the tensile force by the area the force will be applied over. Using metric units, a peak load of 300 lbs = 1334 N, and assuming your 1/32" x 1.5" (0.79 x 38.1 mm) part will be hanging vertically, the static stress in the part will be 44 MPa. This is at the upper range of Fused Deposition Manufacturing / Fused Filament Fabrication capability, but it's still feasible without going to exotic (and expensive) materials like the PEEK and metal filaments mentioned already.

One issue you'd have to watch out for is that FDM parts do not have the same properties as isotropic injection-moulded or SLS-printed parts, so your FDM part may have to grow from the sizes you indicated to withstand the same stress. Another is that you specified that this part "should not be able to flex much if at all". Any material is going to deform at least a little under load, so you will have to define how much elongation or "flex" (bending deflection?) is acceptable, putting another constraint on your choices of materials. Finally, you said that your part is going to be sold for $10-20. That's going to be very challenging if your part needs to be made out of metal, since you said that its shape is "wavy" (thus making it unsuited to relatively cheap methods like sheet metal bending). You'll need to come up with a set of performance requirements for your product to determine material choice, including the factors that Benni mentioned in his third comment. If you can use a common FDM material, you could probably print economical parts using an affordable printer like a Prusa. 

If your part is not being loaded purely in tension and is being bent in some way, you will have to calculate the stress using a different method (that will probably involve calculating the area moment of inertia). At this point, depending on your time, budget, and comfort levels, you may want to sit down with some good textbooks on statics and dynamics or hire a materials engineer to work under NDA on your application.

 

Posted : 30/12/2021 5:48 pm
burtronix
(@burtronix)
Estimable Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

Great engineering perspective! Keep it coming! Sometimes the dialog here ranges from the impractical to the fantastic (as in fantasy). You obviously have some experience in engineering design, manufacturing, & innovation.

Posted by: @painted-futures

Re: the stress question, calculating it depends on how exactly your part will be loaded. If it's loaded in tension (ex. like a cable that is holding up a box from a crane), you can calculate tensile stress by dividing the tensile force by the area the force will be applied over. Using metric units, a peak load of 300 lbs = 1334 N, and assuming your 1/32" x 1.5" (0.79 x 38.1 mm) part will be hanging vertically, the static stress in the part will be 44 MPa. This is at the upper range of Fused Deposition Manufacturing / Fused Filament Fabrication capability, but it's still feasible without going to exotic (and expensive) materials like the PEEK and metal filaments mentioned already.

One issue you'd have to watch out for is that FDM parts do not have the same properties as isotropic injection-moulded or SLS-printed parts, so your FDM part may have to grow from the sizes you indicated to withstand the same stress. Another is that you specified that this part "should not be able to flex much if at all". Any material is going to deform at least a little under load, so you will have to define how much elongation or "flex" (bending deflection?) is acceptable, putting another constraint on your choices of materials. Finally, you said that your part is going to be sold for $10-20. That's going to be very challenging if your part needs to be made out of metal, since you said that its shape is "wavy" (thus making it unsuited to relatively cheap methods like sheet metal bending). You'll need to come up with a set of performance requirements for your product to determine material choice, including the factors that Benni mentioned in his third comment. If you can use a common FDM material, you could probably print economical parts using an affordable printer like a Prusa. 

If your part is not being loaded purely in tension and is being bent in some way, you will have to calculate the stress using a different method (that will probably involve calculating the area moment of inertia). At this point, depending on your time, budget, and comfort levels, you may want to sit down with some good textbooks on statics and dynamics or hire a materials engineer to work under NDA on your application.

 

Whatever you find to do with your hands, do with all your might!

Posted : 04/01/2022 7:49 pm
MileHigh3Der
(@milehigh3der)
Estimable Member
RE: Can the new XL use metal for printing?

BASFs metal has a 4 inch/100mm cubed size limit.  So 9’ is probably too large. 

nylon or pc fiber filled, or PEKK (alternative to Peek) if you can handle the heat.

for the strongest parts, I will leave holes for screws to reinforce the “stacks” of layers.

And remember annealing helps too.

Posted : 18/01/2022 8:57 pm
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