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CupertinoGeek
(@cupertinogeek)
Active Member
Started happening with Input Shaping

Is anyone else experiencing this described behavior? When starting a new print job on the MK4 with IS 5.0. During the first 2 attempts of a print job, the printer is having adhesion issues and extreme blobbing on the 1st layer. If I do nothing but clean the bed and nozzle and start the job over then on the 2nd but mostly on the 3rd attempt, I get perfect 1st layer. This only started when I upgraded to the IS RC and still remains in the Stable 5.0.  Happening with PETG multi colors and brands. Yes, The Filament is fresh out of the dryer. Mostly curious if I am a lone wolf here. I first blamed it on the RC IS and I was waiting for the  stable release. Now I have validated that it has not been resolved in the stable release.

 

 

 

Best Answer by CupertinoGeek:

This went off the rails and in a total different direction from my initial post. End results are that after the firmware upgrade to the latest stable release of 5.0 the issue that I was having was related to a z offset bug. It is no longer an issue for me. The other issues reported in this post appear to be mostly related to pure adhesion issues. 

Posted : 22/09/2023 6:43 pm
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

I can't compare the 2 firmwares as I haven't printed PETG on the older 4.7.x one.

I have had no adhesion or first layer issues in 5.0 with IS when printing PLA, however I definitely had some issues today on my first runs of PETG parts.  Poor bed adhesion, the first layer of the part looked fine but the printer made an unholy mess of the (organic type) scaffolding.  The parts printed fine in the end (had 1 restart when the part popped off the bed halfway through), though the surface that interfaced with the scaffolding was a bit messy.

I put it down to incorrect temperature settings (filament brand: Real), but some others suggested that the profile for the first layer is a bit off for PETG, and suggested using a Z offset of -0,025mm.  I will try that tomorrow.

Posted : 22/09/2023 9:27 pm
CupertinoGeek
(@cupertinogeek)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Thanks for the reply and the insight of what you are seeing. I would appreciate your update tomorrow after your testing is complete.

Posted : 23/09/2023 1:17 am
Rainer
(@rainer-2)
Reputable Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

The first thing I do when I have any problems with adhesion is clean with dishwashing liquid, the hard side of the kitchen sponge and lukewarm water.

This helps in 99.9%.

There is also the assumption that the hotend fan blows too much on the nozzle. Here is the download for a shield.

Otherwise, I would load the old firmware again to exclude this.

Posted : 23/09/2023 8:28 am
CupertinoGeek
(@cupertinogeek)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Thanks. This is not a typical adhesion issue. I am very aware of the processes for cleaning the bed and the beds stays very clean. I’m pretty sure this is some odd load cell/firmware calibration bug that started with the release candidate. I already have a shield over the fan. I installed the latest rc2 of the 2.6.1 slicer update last night with its newest profiles and thus far this issue has not resurfaced. I only see one thing in the release notes that could possibly be related to my issue.  Time will tell. 

Posted : 23/09/2023 11:34 am
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Thanks for that fan shroud link, I'll give that a go.  I'm not sure if it's a factor though, the fan is disabled for the first few layers as per the filament preset.

In my case, in addition to observed poor adhesion (especially of the brim), the first layer seemed a bit flimsy compared to PLA prints. 

I did start with cleaning the bed, and increasing the bed temperature a little (the manufacturer recommendation was much lower than the Prusa presets).  The higher temperature did help a little with adhesion but the layer still looked flimsy.  Maybe it's under-extrusion, though the rest of the print seems fine.

So a couple of things to try:

  • Z offset.  I tried a print with -0.025 and the first layer came out nicely.  One corner came off the bed a little bit due to warping (the shape of this part is a factor).  Going to increase the bed temperature a little again.
  • Increasing the extrusion, maybe only for the first layer (this needs a little G-Code)

 

Posted : 23/09/2023 12:07 pm
JoanTabb
(@joantabb)
Veteran Member Moderator
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

have you given the bed a really good clean?

regards Joan

I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK

Posted : 23/09/2023 12:20 pm
James Kirk
(@james-kirk)
Trusted Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

I printed a lot of PETG the last days. Would say, more than 1kg. 
First layer and adhesion was perfect all the time. 
5.0 RC and 5.0 final, absolutely no difference here. 

Posted : 23/09/2023 12:59 pm
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Are you using a particular brand of filament?

Posted : 23/09/2023 1:34 pm
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Another possibility that was mentioned somewhere else: Sometimes a little filament oozes out of the print head just before bed leveling, and it may mess up the Z zero.  Might want to check that the nozzle is clean before leveling starts.

Posted : 23/09/2023 2:53 pm
szara
(@szara)
Eminent Member
RE:

I use the soft side of the sponge with warm water and dishwasher soap. Does the rough side of the sponge scratch the smooth or satin steel sheet (coating)?

This post was modified 5 months ago by szara
Posted : 23/09/2023 5:16 pm
CupertinoGeek
(@cupertinogeek)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

No. It is fine to use the rough side of the sponge.

Posted : 23/09/2023 6:29 pm
Fred's Five
(@freds-five)
Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Excuse me if I am stating something obvious already.

Have you tried manually adjusting Z offset during the first layer calibration routine?

 

Posted : 23/09/2023 9:12 pm
CupertinoGeek
(@cupertinogeek)
Active Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Yes, that oozing thread was me telling others about that finding. That was a factor and was addressed by cleaning right before the calibration. It also became less of an issue on the Stable release. As stated, I’m pretty sure this is some odd load cell/firmware calibration bug that started with the release candidate and I was curious if I was a lone wolf on this issue or others are seeing similar issues. 

Posted : 23/09/2023 9:37 pm
OB1
 OB1
(@ob1)
Trusted Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

I've had these type of issues long before any IS firmware. For me, it's all about too much oozing and/or nozzle cleaning not working as needed and/or loadcell is not consistent in it's readings. It's a combo of any one, or two or all three of these factors.

My best solution has been to change the start code to retract 30mm before nozzle cleaning/bed leveling, then detract 40mm before purge. This has helped tremendously in reduce 1st layer issues.

To me, MK3S+ was more reliable on first layer printing than MK4.

Posted : 23/09/2023 11:31 pm
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Still having adhesion issues on a (clean) Satin board.  I switched to PEI with a release agent, getting better adhesion.  Maybe it's an issue with this particular brand of PETG.

Posted : 24/09/2023 12:42 pm
herbert
(@herbert)
Estimable Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

I upgraded to firmware 5 last weekend and starting to have problems with adhesion. I am using the new profiles in prusaslicer 2.6.1 (structural and  speed) on steel and satin sheet with PLA and PETG. Same filament and usage as before (some prusament some other brands). In my case, I did not have any adhesion issues with my printer the weeks before the upgrade. Have not yet tested the old profiles or old firmware - to be honest.

This is what I wrote Prusa today

Since that time, I do have issues with layer adhesion. My prints, start lose layer adhesion and warp. I still use the same material, as with the prints before, which all worked fine.

I use non Prusamen PLA and PETG as well as Prusament. I use the PEI sheet as well as the Satin Sheet, always the same. Using the standard IS profiles with 0,20mm height. Noticable is, that most prints start warping at around 1 to 2 cm in height, until that all seems to be fine (but could be a coincidence).

I tried to raise the bed temperature and it got better, but it is not gone. (Basically this is the reason why I tried the old non IS profiles but stopped because of the clicking coming back and did not want to damage the motor).

I measuered the bed temperature, also read your post about it 

https://help.prusa3d.com/article/heatbed-not-heating-up-properly_2086 and

https://github.com/prusa3d/PrusaSlicer/issues/4000

 

I know it can be off about 10 to 5 degrees, but it seems more on the edges of the bed, as well as on higher temperatures like on PETG.

I am not sure if it is firmware 5, or PrusaSlicer Profiles or a combination, but I know that I did not have the problems previously before upgrading to firmware 5.

 

What I tried until now:

Resetting to factory default on firmware 5

Cleaning PEI and Satin sheet with alcohol, soap, and window cleaner (which I use for more than 3 years now without problems)

I raised the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees in the slicer settings, got better but not eliminated.

Added a Brim to some object, makes it better but still not really good.

I am also curious what could be the problem which suddenly appeared.

Posted : 25/09/2023 9:26 am
Cipis
(@cipis)
Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

You may try to slow down the first layer speed. IS profiles are using 40mm/s, while old profiles 20mm/s. That may be the difference between old and new prints for you.

Posted : 25/09/2023 9:33 am
herbert
(@herbert)
Estimable Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

 

Posted by: @cipis

You may try to slow down the first layer speed. IS profiles are using 40mm/s, while old profiles 20mm/s. That may be the difference between old and new prints for you.

Thanks, I will give this a try. Would have thought, that Prusa has tested those profiles properly and as I dig more into the topic, it seems I am not the only one, but perhaps still a minority 😉

Posted : 25/09/2023 9:47 am
Intveltr
(@intveltr)
Eminent Member
RE: Started happening with Input Shaping

Tried a few prints with the first layer at 20mm/s, no Z offset, PETG on a satin sheet.  The first layers do look better and I get better adhesion as well.  I had one tall part with a small footprint pop off, that one just gets shaken and wobbled off the bed 😊 

Posted : 25/09/2023 5:49 pm
herbert liked
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