The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.
 
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The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.  

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P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Hello all and the Prusa dev team in particular.

Using the current firmware the instructions for changing filament are incorrect. They are presented in reverse order, and if a user follows them to the letter it causes the filament to not reach the extruder.

It says :

"Press Continue and push filament into the extruder"

This is wrong because it suggests that the order of action is to first press the clickwheel, and then push the filament in. But since the extruder starts spinning right at the moment "Continue" is validated, there is no time given to the user to grab their filament and push it in. Meaning that the filament ends up never reaching the hotend, stopping right in the middle of the tube at best.

There is no way that anyone could read this prompt and guess that they should put the filament in all the way until resistance is met, and *then* press continue - yet this is precisely what is expected from the user for proper filament loading.

Instead, it should say :

"Slide the new filament into the tube and push firmly until resistance is met. Then press Continue and keep pushing until the extruder grabs the filament".

Of course I understand that this might not fit inside the screen - but if that's the case then the words could be abbreviated or some scrolling be used. But the instructions should not be wrong 😀

(Also, "Press Continue and push filament into the extruder" is broken English because one cannot do both actions at once. Therefore it shouldn't be "and" but rather be clarified as "then". But then once things are that clear, it makes it even more obvious that the instruction describe the reverse of what one should do anyways :D)

Overall there might be a need to get the UI text messages reviewed by a native english speaker familiar with 3D printing.

This topic was modified 2 years ago 3 times by P.O.
Posted : 25/08/2022 10:47 am
Razor liked
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

Also, for Batman's sake please allow longer time for editing posts, or at least warn then user that edits wont stick *before* they attempt to commit them. This makes this forum a royal pain to use.

This post was modified 2 years ago 2 times by P.O.
Posted : 25/08/2022 10:54 am
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Illustrious Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Posts here aren't actually to the developers.  This is mainly a user to user forum and even many of the moderators dont actually work for Prusa.  If you want to raise an issue where it will get attention then the place to do so is the appropriate github project.

For the Mini (which uses the Buddy board as the controller) that is https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues

For the MK3 series it is https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/issues

And for Prusa Slicer it is https://github.com/prusa3d/PrusaSlicer/issues

Issues raised there get a proper issue number and are tracked by Prusa Staff.  Please please please though search through both Open and Closed issues using as many relevant keywords as you can think of to avoid creating duplicates.  For example the Slicer has over 2000 open issues and over 5000 closed ones.  The mini project isn't anywhere near that but there's still over 200 open ones.  

For your particular issue however there is one already,  https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues/1702   Opened Nov 2021.  You might want to go add your comments to that issue to push it back up the list a bit.

Posted : 25/08/2022 11:11 am
languer and Razor liked
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Hi there !

Well, thanks. Very weird how the path to provide such feedback isn't mentioned anywhere on the website.

If anything this post could still help anyone running into the issue when using their mini, so I'll leave it here just for that !

Posted : 25/08/2022 11:17 am
Razor
(@razor)
Estimable Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Thanks for the links @neophyl. I went and added my $.02. 😉

Mini+MK3S+XL 5 Tool

Posted : 25/08/2022 12:27 pm
P.O. liked
fuchsr
(@fuchsr)
Famed Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Press Continue and push filament into the extruder" is broken English because one cannot do both actions at once.

I guess that can be debated 🙂 I usually do exactly that. I push the filament with my right hand and press the button with my left. So for me, the instructions are just fine 😇

Posted : 25/08/2022 3:15 pm
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

Of course "and" can sometimes be used to express one action followed by the other - but no user instructions related to a device warming up to over 200C should ever require from the user to juggle with two things at once. So by definition it has to be a sequence, and if it is, then it can only be the other way around. There isn't much to debate here 😀

This post was modified 2 years ago 2 times by P.O.
Posted : 25/08/2022 4:24 pm
Aphaitas
(@aphaitas)
Eminent Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

Hmmm. Do you have the filament sensor?

I never expierienced the extruder only pushing the filament halfway on my MINI+.
But probably only, because the load/change function will immediately complain after hitting CONTINUE,
when no filament was detected in the filament sensor.
So I always have time to insert and push it towards the extruder, if I didn't before pressing CONTINUE.

Luckily, I never pushed it just halfway before CONTINUE.
I either didn't insert it at all, or I did it all the way to the extruder aleady
and only need to give it a last little push to make it bite.
But that's basically body memory. Not my extreme smartness.
Interesting. Have to make a mental note I guess.

Posted : 27/08/2022 7:13 pm
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

Hi there  @Aphaitas !

I do not have a filament sensor as I am using a plain Mini (not +, and without extras/mods). With this setup the system doesn't complain at all when no filament is inserted, and as a matter of fact it starts spinning the extruder gear right away (first slowly spinning it in an attempt to catch the filament, then going full speed to make it reach the hotend). Meaning that for those who don't have the chance of being blessed by the superior agility and dexterity of @fuchsr (I won't let go of that one easily man !), there is just no way to perform the step properly. And there is no way to jog the filament forward btw, the only way out is to cancel out to eject it and restart.

Of course one could say that the "and" should be interpreted as a "while". But if that's the case then it should just say that to begin with, because "while" is not ambiguous, whereas "and" is. Which is why I believe this whole thing simply comes from a not so tight fluency in english by whoever designed this menu.

Here's a quick video showing the obvious issue, first following the order of the instructions resulting in the filament barely passing the extruder ; and then reversing them which results in a successful load all the way to the hotend.

=

 

 

 

This post was modified 2 years ago 3 times by P.O.
Posted : 27/08/2022 7:51 pm
Dianos
(@dianos)
Active Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

I’m Italian so something may be lost in translation but in the importance of coordinated and subordinated conjunctions is critical in romantic languages. The Czech to English translation may be affected by the broader use of the English conjunction “and”.

 

Posted : 07/09/2022 3:32 pm
Kalimero
(@kalimero)
Reputable Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

I understand the conjunction "and" as a logical operator when both conditions must be met at the same time. So, before pressing the button, I have the filament ready in front of the extruder, i.e. inserted as far as it will go. I don't think a 3D printer needs instructions like "don't dry the cat in the microwave", because the printer is operated by a technician.

Nejsem zaměstnancem Prusa Research.

Posted : 14/09/2022 6:49 am
Neophyl
(@neophyl)
Illustrious Member
RE: The instructions for filament change are incorrect as they are presented in reverse order.

I don't have a mini but on my mk3 and the cr10 you can command any of the motors to move from the lcd.  I can tell them to extrude as much filament as I want.  Doesn't the mini have similar ?  In which case you can jog the filament around as you like.

Posted by: @p-o

And there is no way to jog the filament forward btw, the only way out is to cancel out to eject it and restart.

 

Posted : 14/09/2022 7:02 am
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

@Kalimero : Well, your post and logic shows *precisely* the line of thinking that must have lead to these incorrect instructions 😀 That is to say, thinking like a programmer as opposed to thinking like a UX designer.

- English is not code, and isn't math either. The fact that you interpret "and" as a logical operator meaning that the two condition on both sides must be true is absolutely not what is conveyed by the english text "Press Continue and push filament into the extruder".

- Furthermore, if it was a purely symmetrical logical "and" operator, then sure enough you would have no objection to flipping the sentence around resulting in "Push filament into the extruder and press continue" ... which happens to be precisely the non-ambiguous way of describing what is actually expected of the user.

- Regardless, what the printer expects is absolutely not a "locical and" anyways (at least with the regular mini without a filament sensor). The exact sequence of operations consists of :

  1. Sliding the filament into the tube (which also involves some juggling with the spool if one is using a stock Mini/Mini+, since it doesn't come with a proper filament holder, just a roller stand with bearings)
  2. making it go all the way until resistance is met
  3. maintaining longitudinal pressure on it to make sure that the teeth will grab
  4. lastly, pressing Continue, which *immediately* starts spinning the teethed gear.

 

Put differently : if this was automated to work without human intervention, steps 1 to 3 would happen first, and then a check would happen to make sure that the filament is kept being pressed ; and only then, "Continue".

(Or put yet another way, if we make the analogy with "ctrl-c" on a keyboard : "push filament into the extruder" would be "ctrl", and "Press Continue" would be "C". Ctrl-c with Ctrl properly held as a modifier key always works ; attempting a simultaneous press of ctrl and c only works sometimes ; and C-ctrl never works.)

- Considering all this, your point about the instructions not needing any edit (and the assumption that anyone not guessing the correct order of operation is not worthy of operating a mini) is irrelevant.

This post was modified 2 years ago by P.O.
Posted : 14/09/2022 2:21 pm
P.O.
 P.O.
(@p-o)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
RE:

@Neophil : it depends what you mean by "jog the filament around as you like". On the Mini, after a failed partial load, it is indeed possible to instruct the extruder to extrude some filament but that's only done very slowly, at hot filament extrusion speed as if the filament had been properly loaded all the way to the hot end - which is about 10x slower that the speed that would be needed to comfortably jog the filament past the extruder gear over the remaining 20cm or so of bowden tubing. Cancelling out the whole thing is faster than attempting to jog forward extremely slowly.

This post was modified 2 years ago 2 times by P.O.
Posted : 14/09/2022 2:28 pm
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