Input Shaper.......  

RE: Input Shaper.......

Fully agree. There is a reason those that have implemented IS have the accelerometers in place doing active measurement vs a static, generic, factory value. Not to mention, the price per thousand on the ADXL is under $1.

RE: Input Shaper.......

I know this is the MK4 board, but I'd be interested as to how it's going for the XL, since this was announced first and has the accelerometer already.  And these issues wouldn't seem to affect it.  

I'm also surprised they didn't already know this would be an issue on the MK4 until after they started shipping it.  I wonder what it would cost them per unit to ship out accelerometer kits... ~$30 for US customers or so? (accelerometer + shipping).

RE: Input Shaper.......

Considering they have been running MK4's in their print farms for the past year, I'm also surprised they didn't see this as an issue until after release. It's a big selling point for many, so not something they can avoid.....

Posted by: @darksharpie

I'm also surprised they didn't already know this would be an issue on the MK4 until after they started shipping it.  I wonder what it would cost them per unit to ship out accelerometer kits... ~$30 for US customers or so? (accelerometer + shipping).

RE: Input Shaper.......

I have a slight feeling that we got trapped with a "Prusa Mini Wifi" feature. I'm very close to cancelling & refund my kit order.
I don't need it, but I wanted it because of the input shaper feature. Same "need" as I had when I bought the Mini back then, never saw the Wifi feature, because I sold the Mini after two years.

RE: Input Shaper.......

Im personally not too fussed with wifi considering my printer generally sits on the same desk as my router, hence I'm more likely to go cabled anyways - its the Input Shaper that has me concerned. Will most likely keep my order since Ive sold my MK3S+ so that will be going in a few days - got a good price for it so I didn't have to spend too much more to get the MK4 anyways, but I'd certainly be looking for an accelerometer add-on......

RE: Input Shaper.......

BambuLab have started including the camera module and LED light kit pre-installed to all their P1P printers.

For all previous costumers, they are sending a camera and light kit for FREE.

An accelerometer costs how much in comparison??....... Jus' Sayin'......... 😉

Posted by: @darksharpie

I'm also surprised they didn't already know this would be an issue on the MK4 until after they started shipping it.  I wonder what it would cost them per unit to ship out accelerometer kits... ~$30 for US customers or so? (accelerometer + shipping).

RE: Input Shaper.......

I'm pretty confident Input shaping wasn't even on their radar until they did the survey of what people would want to see in an MK4 and the results of that prompted them to start working on it.  So probably most of their early testing didn't even have it in mind.

Posted by: @iftibashir

Considering they have been running MK4's in their print farms for the past year, I'm also surprised they didn't see this as an issue until after release. It's a big selling point for many, so not something they can avoid.....

Posted by: @darksharpie

I'm also surprised they didn't already know this would be an issue on the MK4 until after they started shipping it.  I wonder what it would cost them per unit to ship out accelerometer kits... ~$30 for US customers or so? (accelerometer + shipping).

 

RE: Input Shaper.......

I suspect what might end up happening in the long run, is the firmware will include a "standard" input shaping profile that can be selected on or off by the user.  In addition to that, the provision for mounting accelerometers to the print head and the bed, so as an advanced option a custom input shaping profile can be generated, tuned to the individual printer.

RE: Input Shaper.......

I hope you're right. Because I hate the idea of a "least common denominator" version of Input Shaping that smooths out details without me having an option to do it right.

Posted by: @netpackrat

I suspect what might end up happening in the long run, is the firmware will include a "standard" input shaping profile that can be selected on or off by the user.  In addition to that, the provision for mounting accelerometers to the print head and the bed, so as an advanced option a custom input shaping profile can be generated, tuned to the individual printer.

RE: Input Shaper.......

It's not really that you'd loose a certain amount of detail.  Let's consider case 1 :  your assembled printer and setup (bench, dampening.. etc) ends up being very close to the setup that Prusa used for their standard calibration, then your  input shaping settings are nearly as good as a customized profile made by an accelerometer installed in your printer.

Now, case 2 : your assembled printer and setup is very different from Prusa's standard, regarding frecuence resonances. Then standard profile is no good at all and you'd end up getting worse results on that MK4 than on a regular MK3S/+ without input shaper.

Case 1 and 2 being the best and worst, most units will fall between the two extremes. Therefore, standard profile it's a just a lottery and you don't know beforehand what are your chances of winning.

RE: Input Shaper.......

They've specifically said that the end result of their tuning will likely result in some variables set to basically average out the variances which will mean a loss in fine detail because they will be over-smoothing the curves in the algorithms.

RE: Input Shaper.......

It also seems to be the case that Prusas own Printers have already enough variation in resonance that a one fits it all profile will probably lead to significant loss of detail. We are not even talking about real world variation, incl. kits, LACKs etc.

Such an implementation of input shaper would be vastly inferior and render ths feature basically uselesy if the competion offers input shaper with almost no visible liss in detail or cornef softening.

Input shaper also does not need additional sensors, just a firmware which can handle the feature and a way to manually chnge the IS settings. 

RE: Input Shaper.......

Just to be clear, I don't believe too much to the input shaper as the Holy Grail; it is just the fashion of the moment. 😉

As all the things, it has its drawbacks, and one of that is the fact that it looses the details; always!  The amount can depends on how much the IS is well tuned, but for sure a print without input shaper has much more details if the print is rich of small details that can be interpreted as 'vibrations'.

1. Not all the printers with Klipper (forgot Marlin 2.0 for now) have an accelerometer sensor to measure the vibrations. On some models it should be purchased and installed by the user, and the hardware should be configured in the Klipper config. However, the process is ONE-SHOT only (usually run with the sensor installed, and then removed) and the vibrations data recorded are stored  for a future 'correction' of the prints.
2. Klipper printers: have this procedure as option in in Calibration.
3. Prusa: may be  they do the test just after any MK4 assembling and store the data in the printer, or even worse, they store just the same average data on all the printers assuming it will work for all the MK4. However they are all speculations, since an official guide on how to setup input shaper on MK4 Kits is not available because the input shaper firmware (5.0 I think) and kits are not released yet.
4. Bambulab X1 Carbon: has the sensor, and it does a shake test from its Calibration Menu process to measure and store the vibration data.
5. As you can imagine, any change to the printer static (e.g. I new roll added on the top of the printer, the additional weight and static added to the plate during a big print, something moving or added to the table with the printer, another printer on the same table that is shaking the table during a fast infill) invalidate the data that were measure in a complete different situation.
6. But the most important fact for me, is that NONE of them activate the sensor in real time during the print, to correct on fly the acceleration/deceleration of the nozzle while it is moving and melting the filament, reading the actual real shake, comparing it with the ideal flow at zero vibration, and creating a negative vibration that clear the excess of vibrations like a noise cancelling headphones. That would be a real game changer.

So as it is now, it is not so great. Input shaper is just a nice option. May be it does less artifacts and ringing but now it does also less details.

RE: Input Shaper.......

Oh boy... just because it is finally widely known by people, doesn't mean it is a fashion of the moment. 🙄 

Yes, BambuLab uses very aggressive input shapers with a lot of smoothing, but that doesn't mean that such aggressive smoothing/IS is needed!

It would also not need a sensor perse, the calibration can be done with test prints. And yes, a re-calibration over time is needed.

Posted by: @antimix

Just to be clear, I don't believe too much to the input shaper as the Holy Grail; it is just the fashion of the moment. 😉

RE: Input Shaper.......

I've posted a large update in the master thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/12sgny2/known_mk4_design_flaw/

RE: Input Shaper.......

I was underwhelmed by the launch, so I canceled my order on Wednesday, after a month of back and forth.

I ordered a X1C on the same day. It arrived today and is printing already.

Despite what might be the better printer, fact is, it's available and you know what you get. Right now.

RE: Input Shaper.......

I would have been much more tempted had it not been for the noise the thing generates while printing! I run my printer in the house and I don’t think I could handle the noise!

Posted by: @weak

I was underwhelmed by the launch, so I canceled my order on Wednesday, after a month of back and forth.

I ordered a X1C on the same day. It arrived today and is printing already.

Despite what might be the better printer, fact is, it's available and you know what you get. Right now.

RE: Input Shaper.......

Same for me. I can't have any printer that has around 59dB average and can reach 74dB peaks. I don't have a farm. My neighbors would kill me 🤣 

Posted by: @iftibashir

I would have been much more tempted had it not been for the noise the thing generates while printing! I run my printer in the house and I don’t think I could handle the noise!

Posted by: @weak

I was underwhelmed by the launch, so I canceled my order on Wednesday, after a month of back and forth.

I ordered a X1C on the same day. It arrived today and is printing already.

Despite what might be the better printer, fact is, it's available and you know what you get. Right now.

 

RE:

Posted by: @weak

I was underwhelmed by the launch, so I canceled my order on Wednesday, after a month of back and forth.

I ordered a X1C on the same day. It arrived today and is printing already.

Despite what might be the better printer, fact is, it's available and you know what you get. Right now.

Any concerns about being in that ecosystem for parts or locked into any specific element of that system?

I feel like I am leaning Very Heavily that way as well...

Supposedly they have a "new LAN mode" so not as reliant on cloud services as I had read and been led to believe.

Only hardware feature that I have found locked behind cloud services so far if using the LAN Mode is the camera seems to require it and wont work strictly Locally.

Concerned about the slicer and how a fork might lose parity and reliability over time with a unproven quantity VS prusa slicer which really has been pretty great for me TBH.

Thinking I could keep the MK3 inside for quiet prints, and the X1 in the shop when I need/want a prototype part ASAP.

Anyone that knows about those bambu printers, is there a good video or page showing the detractors, pros/cons in detail of entering into that ecosystem from a Prusa?

RE:

I would have been much more tempted had it not been for the noise the thing generates while printing!

It definitely isn't quiet. Absolutely no comparison to a Prusa.

Only hardware feature that I have found locked behind cloud services so far if using the LAN Mode is the camera seems to require it and wont work strictly Locally.

That's my understanding as well. There's a feature request on GH though.

Concerned about the slicer and how a fork might lose parity and reliability over time with a unproven quantity VS prusa slicer which really has been pretty great for me TBH.

Well, the slicer is open source and there's already a fork with even more features (Orca Slicer). Not too concerned about that.

Any concerns about being in that ecosystem for parts or locked into any specific element of that system?

A bit. Repairability seems quite limited in some areas. So I'll have to see how it turns out…

I hope Prusa will release a decent smaller core xy in the future. I just don't think the MK4 has a goold value proposition as is.