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Birdman2010
(@birdman2010)
Eminent Member
400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

My CR-10 is down again! I am wasting so much time on that piece of crap! My Prusa MK2s keeps printing away like a workhorse. I just need a bigger build volume. A while back, Prusa sent a questionnaire checking interest for a bigger Prusa printer. I would love to purchase an "Original Prusa XL". Yes, you can use that name. It is all yours! Just make the printer! If it is 400 x 400 and sells for $995 kit / $1200 built USD, then it would fit perfectly into the Prusa line-up!

When can I purchase a 400 x 400 Original Prusa XL? I would love to have it for Christmas!

Posted : 19/10/2018 2:29 am
Peter L
(@peter-l)
Honorable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?


When can I purchase a 400 x 400 Original Prusa XL? I would love to have it for Christmas!

Bwahahaha!

Christmas of which year?

but seriously though....I've heard People Who Know More About The Subject Than Me say that the current size of the MK3 is about as large as you can go with the existing design before you start to run into problems with the frame not being rigid enough and having too much mass on a moving build plate.

Larger format printers often have the print head move in X and Y and the print bed in Z, and the cool kids all seem to be using a CoreXY design these days. I gather that style reduces vibrations from slinging around a heavy build plate, but it's more complicated to keep the X and Y axes square.

So it sounds like a much larger printer will require a ground up redesign.

Posted : 19/10/2018 5:31 pm
Birdman2010
(@birdman2010)
Eminent Member
Topic starter answered:
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Okay, fine. I'll buy another replacement part for my CR-10 and see if I can get it to start printing reliably. What should I try next? I think that I have almost rebuilt that piece of crap from the ground up.

Josef, please design a 400 x 400 printer for us. It is painful for us to deal with these Chinese knock-offs. I need an Original Prusa XL for my projects!

Posted : 19/10/2018 8:11 pm
Neal
 Neal
(@neal)
Reputable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Like you, Birdman2010, I own a CR-10. Unlike you tho I don't seem to be having problems with it. Sorry to hear that.

Neal

Posted : 19/10/2018 8:19 pm
RufusClupea
(@rufusclupea)
Reputable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?


What should I try next?

I thought Peter.I22 had answered that(?)

....
Larger format printers often have the print head move in X and Y and the print bed in Z, and the cool kids all seem to be using a CoreXY design these days.
....
So it sounds like a much larger printer will require a ground up redesign.

Alternatives to/variants of--CoreXY include C-Bots, D-Bots, H-Bots, J-Bots, & T-Bots (have I missed any?) All are open-sourced like the Prusa Clan, and can be found out on various web sources, but probably aren't appropriate for discussion here(?) (Unless PR may be thinking of going in one of those directions...)

That's "MISTER Old Fart" to you!

Posted : 19/10/2018 8:29 pm
randolph.l
(@randolph-l)
Honorable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Delta printers can have quite large built volumes as well the Rostock Max for example also an open source design the kit goes for a grand and is very high quality... I would call them the Prusa of the delta world their Artemis at $2000 has a 290mm x 500mm build area but it is getting into the prosumer area I think

this is the delta I built (or rather the 2015 model the V2.5) and use and you should note that he build space on these tapers a bit as you near max hight quoted (about 10% at 380mm on mine)
https://www.seemecnc.com/collections/3d-printers/products/rostockmax-v3-2-diy-kit-black
Printer Specifications

WiFi Control, USB required for setup
275mm Dia x 385mm H Print Area
Minimum Capable Layer Height with 0.5mm nozzle of 0.08mm
Maximum Recommended Layer Height with .5mm nozzle of .4mm
Power Requirements 110v or 220v (input power selectable) @ 350 watts
Maximum Onyx Heated Bed Temp 100C
Max Hotend Temp 280C
Max Recommended Printing Speed @.2mm Layer Height 100mm/s
Max Travel Speed 300mm/s
Printer overall size without spool 430mmW x 410mmL x 910mmH
Printer overall size with spool on top 430mmW x 410mmL x 1130mmH

Posted : 19/10/2018 9:38 pm
The Plastic Shed
(@the-plastic-shed)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Like many others for me the build size of the MK3 is becoming a real limitation and I need to hack my drawings to suit the build size so I'm already in the design stages of a 400x400. The moving X / Y bed is the challenge, and I tend to agree it is already at the limit as can be seen if you push the speed up, the other challenge you face affects not only the i3 design but any other design using linear rods. Once you go beyond a certain length they sag under their own weight - the calculation for how much is hotly debated and complex, I've yet to get a satisfactory answer but I did figure out that at 400 wide a 550mm rod would need to probably be a Mitsumi 10mm 'hollow' version (hollow flex's less than solid - for some very complicated reasons principally increased surface area). So you need to check out the Hypercube Evolution or the RatRig V-CORE - both are core XY printers, both are very scaleable, but at 400 wide you're into 10mm x axis rods.

Hypercube Evolution : https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2254103

I was building a Hypercube but I've put that on hold, I'm going to try a RatRig with the rollers / wheels - no more rods and see how it pans out, if it doesn't work well I'll switch to linear rails since it is an extrusion based printer this shouldn't be too hard. The hardest thing with the core-xy is getting the belt tensions sorted. Would be worth watching SCOTT_3D's YouTube build vids.

RatRig : http://www.ratrig.com/3d-printing-cnc/3d-printer-kits/vcoremechanical.html

Ask them nicely and they'll do you a 400x400 version for a small extra fee 😉

Posted : 20/10/2018 6:26 pm
serano.s
(@serano-s)
New Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

which are you used program please ? CURA,Simlifity3D vs which one ?

Posted : 29/11/2018 1:00 pm
The Plastic Shed
(@the-plastic-shed)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Pretty much exclusively Slic3rPE and Simplify 3D.

For whatever reason there are still some tasks that work better in Slic3rPE. Despite recent updates Simplify3d still absolutely sucks when bridging and bridge detection, you can't set the threshold low enough to get the first top layers treated as bridges (depending on your infill settings) this results in pillowing and holes because the fan isn't used when it really needs to be.

You can set this up in Simplify3D on a layer basis but this is too indiscriminate and treats the whole layer as a bridge which may not be what you need.

I tried Cura for a while but just couldn't get on with it.

The hypercube is Duet 2 Ethernet powered but I'm struggling to get the hot end mounted satisfactorily. Hypercube design doesn't lend itself to direct drive extruders, particularly if you want to use rails instead of rods, I'm trying to use an E3D Titan Aqua but it is forcing too much overhang / offset that results in too much undesirable movement at the nozzle tip.

Posted : 29/11/2018 1:15 pm
Robin
(@robin-4)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

I am waiting for parts to start on an i3 mk3 Bear tall. This has Z axis height of between 400 to 450mm. X & X remain the same.
Although i would prefer the X & Y larger

Posted : 29/11/2018 6:40 pm
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

I am surprised there is not more demand for a larger model.

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 29/11/2018 7:03 pm
Nikolai
(@nikolai)
Noble Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

I think the biggest hold up for bigger model is a heat bed/plate. PR is already struggling with the current demand, just assume you have to make same good things in bigger size.

Often linked posts:
Going small with MMU2
Real Multi Material
My prints on Instagram

Posted : 29/11/2018 7:15 pm
The Plastic Shed
(@the-plastic-shed)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Only good way to handle larger build plates is to stop using 24V - needs to move to a higher AC voltage, then it is no issue. Given that the printer turns AC into DC then the AC is already present. What it would mean though is that different country AC voltages would dictate a different bed, which isn't the end of the world.

Larger beds on 24V just aren't practical, currents are too high, heating times are too slow.

Posted : 29/11/2018 7:19 pm
Nikolai
(@nikolai)
Noble Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?


Larger beds on 24V just aren't practical, currents are too high, heating times are too slow.

But it's safe during operation. Me personally don't want to have 120V/230V heat bed. This thing is moving all the time. How many times I had a broken cable. How many times I've seen exposed cables and heat elements on the bed. You put your live in danger.
Safety should go first.

Often linked posts:
Going small with MMU2
Real Multi Material
My prints on Instagram

Posted : 29/11/2018 7:55 pm
The Plastic Shed
(@the-plastic-shed)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Then you won't get a larger print bed on a Prusa design if you aren't prepared to accept 230V cables moving - it is pretty standard stuff just needs to be handled correctly - and how the Prusa bed is 'wired' is not suitable for 230VAC. To heat up a 400x400 bed using 24V will take minutes - a lot of minutes and serious amounts of current - whilst 230V will do the same job in seconds at very low currents by comparison. A suitable DC power supply to drive large beds is getting into very expensive territory, and for sure they will be fan cooled and noisy as a result.

230 is perfectly safe in the right hands - but on a DIY printer you've got to know what you're doing - I wouldn't supply a 'DIY' box that required persons of unknown ability to mess with 230VAC - other than sticking a plug in ... so you could potentially have a 230V bed (read silicon pad) with a plug arrangement - on a suitable RCD the risk is pretty low.

Posted : 29/11/2018 8:06 pm
Nikolai
(@nikolai)
Noble Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Correct. The whole machine need to be redesigned for safe 230V operation.
Simple things like physically preventing the head ramming into the bed, special connectors/cables which need to be replaced after x hours of operation. Sturdy heat platform which can't be burned through with the extruder heat element. and so forth....
And I can tell you, with all the safety features it will get pretty heavy. Bad thing for a fast moving part. In my opinion the Prusa printer design is not suitable for a 230V heat bed operation. I know it's being used in some clones but it won't come into my house.

Often linked posts:
Going small with MMU2
Real Multi Material
My prints on Instagram

Posted : 29/11/2018 8:27 pm
The Plastic Shed
(@the-plastic-shed)
Estimable Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

or mine ...

has to be designed for the job - which my hypercube is with appropriate RCD and bonding - but I know what I'm doing and why I wouldn't supply to anyone that didn't.

The size of 24V power supply needed to do otherwise on a large bed would be prohibitively expensive .... and noisy

Posted : 29/11/2018 8:33 pm
--
 --
(@)
Illustrious Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

I'd be happy with a larger bed and slower times to temp. Considerign the added print time of a 400mm cubed print at 100 mm/s actual print speeds, what's another 10 minutes to wait for the bed to warm up? As long as the bed has the power in watts to keep it heated at 100C, be happy.

And heck, move the controller to the bottom somewhere and adding another 300w 24V supply mounted on the left rail will help stability and at least double the available power to the bed.

And the 400 mm printer doesn't have to do 0.05 prints, I'd be happy with 0.1 or even 0.15 at that size.

Posted : 29/11/2018 9:40 pm
danal.e
(@danal-e)
Active Member
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Another vote for a large-ish delta. The bed doesn't move, so 110/220 can be safe. Deltas can be quite fast when properly tuned, etc, etc.

I scratch built a 600mm Dia, 620MM Z machine. Bed is a glass plate that is a tabletop that was $40 from Amazon (USA). Heater is stuck directly to the bottom of the glass. Heater was custom built for me by Keenovo for a very reasonable price. I print with hairspray on glass, no PEI or similar. This works VERY well.

Controller is a Duet3d. Effector is a Duet "Smart" effector (the z-probe IS the nozzle. I auto-calibrate before EVERY print, removing the one hassle of Deltas). Arms and rod ends are Hayden Huntley (aka blue eagle labs) magnetic end carbon arms. Motors, controller, power, etc are "on top". Corners are Robotdigg. All aluminum extrusions are 2040.

About $1100 USD in the total printer. And a very fun project to build.

This thing produces fantastic prints.

Here's a photo when it was very incomplete... this photo gives a good idea of the size due to the (un-interested) dog being there for scale.

Posted : 08/12/2018 3:23 am
cwbullet
(@cwbullet)
Re: 400 x 400 Prusa Printer?

Something like that deserves a build thread.

--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog

Posted : 08/12/2018 4:33 pm
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