RE: Update...(Kind of)
-sigh-
Love my Bambu printers, loved my core one... don't see a reason to be adversarial about it, it's just not helpful. INDX will eventually be ready for prime time and likely be a hell of a unit. Prusa's big issue is a lack of an ecosystem (AMSes, etc.)
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I like a lot the new email from Bondtech. Exactly the kind of info I was expecting... am I happy to wait longer? No. Do I respect the decision made by Bondtech to delay and fix this? Oh yes.
A short update on INDX shippingBy Olof Ogland · Bondtech
Alright, so this is the e-mail nobody wants to write and nobody wants to read, but here we are. INDX Founders shipments are getting pushed back. Not by a huge amount, but enough that I’d rather tell you now than have you find out by refreshing the tracking page.
I’ll explain why, because I think you deserve more than “minor delays due to manufacturing” or whatever the standard line is.
The short version: we found some things we want to fix before these units leave the building. The long version is below.
What we found
In the last few weeks of pre-production testing, a few things showed up that weren’t blocking issues, but were enough that we didn’t want to ship and patch later. Two in particular:
Heatbreak temperature is running a little high.Not catastrophically — the printers work — but we’re seeing the heatbreak sit 4–6°C warmer than where we’d like it long-term. That kind of margin matters for filament reliability, especially with the materials we expect people will throw at this thing (PLA in a warm chamber, flexibles, anything heat-sensitive) Lowering it now means fewer heat creep complaints six months in. We’re addressing it with a small tweak to the thermal path.
Firmware tweaks.Several. Nothing dramatic, mostly around tool-change reliability edge cases and calibration robustness. The kind of stuff you only catch when a lot of people start using the thing in a lot of different setups, and we’d rather catch as much of it as we can now.
None of this is a redesign. The hardware is the hardware. These are the kind of refinements that come out of running a lot of test prints and watching the data carefully.
Why we’re not just shipping and patching later
Because you’re Founders. You bought into this before anyone else did, and a lot of you have been waiting a long time. The least we can do is make sure the unit that lands on your desk is the one we’re actually proud of, not the one that needs a service bulletin in month three.
We’d rather build in good safety margins than have a lot of setups fail later.
There’s also a practical angle: hardware tweaks on a passive tool are easy at our end and basically impossible at yours. Once these are out the door, getting you replacement parts means shipping new parts and asking you to do advanced disassembly and reassembly.
That’s a worse experience for you and a worse experience for us. Doing it now is the right call.
How much delay
I’m not gonna give you a date I can’t stand behind. What I can say:
• The hardware fixes are in motion now• The firmware work is ongoing in parallel• We’ll communicate a revised shipping window as soon as we have one we trust
If you want the absolute latest and most direct updates, the newsletter is your best bet. Discord is where you can discuss things and get additional information.
What this doesn’t change
The system itself is solid. The induction heating works, the Dynamic Dual Drive does what it should, tool changes are fast, and the dock mechanism is reliable.
None of what we’re fixing is a fundamental issue. It’s the difference between “good” and “good enough to put your name on.”
I know waiting longer is annoying. I’d be annoyed too. But I’d rather take the small hit now and have you printing on a unit that holds up.
We appreciate the patience. We really do.
— Olof (and the Bondtech Team)
RE: Update...(Kind of)
A short update on INDX shippingBy Olof Ogland · Bondtech
Alright, so this is the e-mail nobody wants to write and nobody wants to read, but here we are. INDX Founders shipments are getting pushed back. Not by a huge amount, but enough that I’d rather tell you now than have you find out by refreshing the tracking page.
I’ll explain why, because I think you deserve more than “minor delays due to manufacturing” or whatever the standard line is.
The short version: we found some things we want to fix before these units leave the building. The long version is below.
What we found
In the last few weeks of pre-production testing, a few things showed up that weren’t blocking issues, but were enough that we didn’t want to ship and patch later. Two in particular:
Heatbreak temperature is running a little high. Not catastrophically — the printers work — but we’re seeing the heatbreak sit 4–6°C warmer than where we’d like it long-term. That kind of margin matters for filament reliability, especially with the materials we expect people will throw at this thing (PLA in a warm chamber, flexibles, anything heat-sensitive) Lowering it now means fewer heat creep complaints six months in. We’re addressing it with a small tweak to the thermal path.
Firmware tweaks. Several. Nothing dramatic, mostly around tool-change reliability edge cases and calibration robustness. The kind of stuff you only catch when a lot of people start using the thing in a lot of different setups, and we’d rather catch as much of it as we can now.
None of this is a redesign. The hardware is the hardware. These are the kind of refinements that come out of running a lot of test prints and watching the data carefully.
Why we’re not just shipping and patching later
Because you’re Founders. You bought into this before anyone else did, and a lot of you have been waiting a long time. The least we can do is make sure the unit that lands on your desk is the one we’re actually proud of, not the one that needs a service bulletin in month three.
We’d rather build in good safety margins than have a lot of setups fail later.
There’s also a practical angle: hardware tweaks on a passive tool are easy at our end and basically impossible at yours. Once these are out the door, getting you replacement parts means shipping new parts and asking you to do advanced disassembly and reassembly.
That’s a worse experience for you and a worse experience for us. Doing it now is the right call.
How much delay
I’m not gonna give you a date I can’t stand behind. What I can say:
• The hardware fixes are in motion now• The firmware work is ongoing in parallel• We’ll communicate a revised shipping window as soon as we have one we trust
If you want the absolute latest and most direct updates, the newsletter is your best bet. Discord is where you can discuss things and get additional information.
What this doesn’t change
The system itself is solid. The induction heating works, the Dynamic Dual Drive does what it should, tool changes are fast, and the dock mechanism is reliable.
None of what we’re fixing is a fundamental issue. It’s the difference between “good” and “good enough to put your name on.”
I know waiting longer is annoying. I’d be annoyed too. But I’d rather take the small hit now and have you printing on a unit that holds up.
We appreciate the patience. We really do.
— Olof (and the Bondtech Team)
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Im chill with the update. Just gimme the retail front panel ! 😂
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Im chill with the update. Just gimme the retail front panel ! 😂
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Not convinced improving the heat break performance by 4-6deg is a simple fix as indicated. If it was they would quantify the delay to shipping.
Everything in the tool changer head is compact with little room to change anything, obvious thing to do is blow more air onto the tiny heatsink on the nozzle if they have the spare capacity, anything else just opens up a can of worms.
RE:
Heatbreak is IMHO one of the Achilles Heels (yes it's got a few) of the Prusa "convenience" package. The significant number of "filament stuck due to heat creep" posts is no coincidence (and I wonder how many - proprietary - replacement nozzles they are selling for that alone, can't be bad business). I consider myself among those who learned things the hard way with the 0.25 mm nozzle, fortunate enough to have a new 2mm drill at hand to prove where the material is getting stuck and that it's far from the hot zone.
Look at a Voron head, it's an eye opener. The whole thing is basically designed around providing mechanical support to the most narrow piece of tubing imaginable (depending on the hotend brand, with Titanium screws as it's a bad thermal conductor).
RE:
I see why Bondtech didn't mention the problem immediately. @inbox don't you think that Bondtech, a specialized company in nozzle tech, deserves at the very least a chance, before doubting whatever they are doing as not enough? I am not shy on criticism but give'em a chance man!!
Not convinced improving the heat break performance by 4-6deg is a simple fix as indicated. If it was they would quantify the delay to shipping.
Everything in the tool changer head is compact with little room to change anything, obvious thing to do is blow more air onto the tiny heatsink on the nozzle if they have the spare capacity, anything else just opens up a can of worms.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Sorry but what does the Prusa history with heat creep has to do with a new tech developed by another company?
Heatbreak is IMHO one of the Achilles Heels (yes it's got a few) of the Prusa "convenience" package. The significant number of "filament stuck due to heat creep" posts is no coincidence (and I wonder how many - proprietary - replacement nozzles they are selling for that alone, can't be bad business). I consider myself among those who learned things the hard way with the 0.25 mm nozzle, fortunate enough to have a new 2mm drill at hand to prove where the material is getting stuck and that it's far from the hot zone.
Look at a Voron head, it's an eye opener. The whole thing is basically designed around providing mechanical support to the most narrow piece of tubing imaginable (depending on the hotend brand, with Titanium screws as it's a bad thermal conductor).
RE: Update...(Kind of)
IDK, one way to work around this is to not print PLA /s
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Sorry but what does the Prusa history with heat creep has to do with a new tech developed by another company?
Heatbreak is IMHO one of the Achilles Heels (yes it's got a few) of the Prusa "convenience" package. The significant number of "filament stuck due to heat creep" posts is no coincidence (and I wonder how many - proprietary - replacement nozzles they are selling for that alone, can't be bad business). I consider myself among those who learned things the hard way with the 0.25 mm nozzle, fortunate enough to have a new 2mm drill at hand to prove where the material is getting stuck and that it's far from the hot zone.
Look at a Voron head, it's an eye opener. The whole thing is basically designed around providing mechanical support to the most narrow piece of tubing imaginable (depending on the hotend brand, with Titanium screws as it's a bad thermal conductor).
squeezing it into a (too?) small package. INDX looks fairly similar to the Prusa Nextruder nozzle system: hotend / coldend in one cartridge suspended in a load cell sensor.
Sure - life is all about compromises. Hotend/cold end being bundled up in one cartridge is very clearly a compromise that trades suboptimal thermal conductivity for something else. If it works - great. If not and heat creep bites, at least be aware of the mechanics behind it e.g. why use thermal grease on Core One (and maybe on INDX the same way, haven't seen it yet).
RE:
Having worked in product development, seen my fair share of thermal problems and how time consuming they are to resolve my critique is about them playing down the impact of this problem. You would expect there will have been plenty of thermal simulation work looking at the hot end/heat break performance so this issue coming out right on the cusp of shipping something is surprising.
The issue it really raises is about the integration of the Bondtech nozzles into the Prusa product and how well that has gone.
I see why Bondtech didn't mention the problem immediately. @inbox don't you think that Bondtech, a specialized company in nozzle tech, deserves at the very least a chance, before doubting whatever they are doing as not enough? I am not shy on criticism but give'em a chance man!!
Not convinced improving the heat break performance by 4-6deg is a simple fix as indicated. If it was they would quantify the delay to shipping.
Everything in the tool changer head is compact with little room to change anything, obvious thing to do is blow more air onto the tiny heatsink on the nozzle if they have the spare capacity, anything else just opens up a can of worms.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Good wine takes time.
Better to wait than to own something afterwards that does not work as expected.
I am curious when Prusa will start shipping. Since they had indicated a time period from June to August if I remember correctly.
So I'm afraid it's the end of August.
But let's hope.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I doubt any heat creep with the INDX will be on Prusa.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Update...(Kind of)
You should just remember that the competition does not pen!
Infimech also has an 8 tool system as a Kickstarter and it is very similar to the INDX
If they are faster, many will probably get such a device
RE:
Infimech also has an 8 tool system as a Kickstarter and it is very similar to the INDX
Similar or blatant rip off? With no indication or visual of a working prototype. I’d keep a wide berth of the Kickstarter personally, has the hallmarks of a scammy campaign. Regardless, the person that is in the market for INDX likely isn’t the same audience for the Infimtech. Imitation is the best form of flattery but I trust in Bondtech and Prusa to deliver Best in class… eventually
RE: Update...(Kind of)
My thoughts exactly.
Infimech also has an 8 tool system as a Kickstarter and it is very similar to the INDX
Similar or blatant rip off? With no indication or visual of a working prototype. I’d keep a wide berth of the Kickstarter personally, has the hallmarks of a scammy campaign. Regardless, the person that is in the market for INDX likely isn’t the same audience for the Infimtech. Imitation is the best form of flattery but I trust in Bondtech and Prusa to deliver Best in class… eventually
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Field day for Bondtech lawyers?
My thoughts exactly.
Infimech also has an 8 tool system as a Kickstarter and it is very similar to the INDX
Similar or blatant rip off? With no indication or visual of a working prototype. I’d keep a wide berth of the Kickstarter personally, has the hallmarks of a scammy campaign. Regardless, the person that is in the market for INDX likely isn’t the same audience for the Infimtech. Imitation is the best form of flattery but I trust in Bondtech and Prusa to deliver Best in class… eventually
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I doubt any heat creep with the INDX will be on Prusa.
Maybe but I suspect "cold end" thermal state may need some management through the firmware.
Worst case is probably one color that docks in short intervals, then prints only tiny accents: Loading a new nozzle means fast heating which transfers a lot of thermal energy into the mass of the nozzle. And after unloading, that energy needs to be removed, but without support of the coldend fan. I could imagine there are cases where this simply doesn't work out anymore with passive cooling, so the firmware has to slow things down, make sure a newly loaded head has had time to cool. Or I need a fan in the dock (difficult).
This is total speculation on my end (as no one has seen INDX). The concern comes from my Voron, where the thermal mass of the coldend is tiny, while the UHF hotend is a massive block. It hasn't failed me yet but pulling the plug mid-print and thus stopping the coldend fan sounds like recipe for heat creep failure.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
>> unpleasant personality, maybe it's a deliberately chosen business model
any kind of attention means cash for the channel.
Same with "LoyalMoses" I used to enjoy his 3D printer content but it seems he gets more views now when he rage-baits so I unsubscribed.