RE: Update...(Kind of)
I mean, when I look at the price of replacement parts of the C1 exoskeleton, the left and right side panels cost 24€ each , with the longer corner profiles costing 12.5€. I could image the improved fence costing like 20-24€, that really wouldn't be much
You can basically double that once you add shipping.
It just feels like a bit of a slap in the face for the founders, after we backed them from the very outset of INDX.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
It just feels like a bit of a slap in the face for the founders, after we backed them from the very outset of INDX.
I imagine an agitated debate at Prusa and Bondtech last November, at the end of which they agreed to come up with a different name than Suckers Edition. 😉
RE: Update...(Kind of)
oh my God... that was great. Listen, I'm pretty sure this is gonna be a kick ass system… But it won't be kick ass until it's on the core. One L and all of the teething issues have been ironed out. Honestly, it's the only occurred competition for Bambu and the H2C. Possibly even the H2D...
RE: Update...(Kind of)
It just feels like a bit of a slap in the face for the founders, after we backed them from the very outset of INDX.
I imagine an agitated debate at Prusa and Bondtech last November, at the end of which they agreed to come up with a different name than Suckers Edition. 😉
It's basically the Fanboy edition.
I think given the choice I'd still go for the cheaper price, and the crappy front panel.
With the rapid development/prototyping over the last few months the founders editions were always going to be sold at a loss, so just throw in the decent front panel and be done with it. They'll make their money on the retail kits.
This feels like a bit of a sneaky way to claw a bit of that loss back.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
oh my God... that was great. Listen, I'm pretty sure this is gonna be a kick ass system… But it won't be kick ass until it's on the core. One L and all of the teething issues have been ironed out. Honestly, it's the only occurred competition for Bambu and the H2C. Possibly even the H2D...
What was great ?
RE: Update...(Kind of)
oh my God... that was great. Listen, I'm pretty sure this is gonna be a kick ass system… But it won't be kick ass until it's on the core. One L and all of the teething issues have been ironed out. Honestly, it's the only occurred competition for Bambu and the H2C. Possibly even the H2D...
The winner of this week's most cryptic post goes to........
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Well, it appears that my quoted post didn’t get quoted and somehow I posted in the “brackets”
sigh
RE: Update...(Kind of)
It just feels like a bit of a slap in the face for the founders, after we backed them from the very outset of INDX.
I imagine an agitated debate at Prusa and Bondtech last November, at the end of which they agreed to come up with a different name than Suckers Edition. 😉
So what I was saying… Is that the core 1L with the INDX once it’s actually hashed out will be a good product. I’m sure.
However, I thought suckers edition was pretty damn funny.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I beg to differ. What we are getting is imho a
pretty good package: all the functionality of the retail version but the front part. I personally do not see this much difference between the FE and the "new" front part: with 8 tools installed there is not much access and visibility anyway, the two diagonal bars on the FE don't make it really worse.
would I love to get the new front? yes absolutely. Is this a sucker edition? No, after all we knew we could have gotten a waaay worse package when we subscribed to it.
...and we get the 90$ tshirt 😂
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I was kidding about the "suckers edition" (mostly). Customers are certainly getting a lot of stuff, more than they had bargained for at the time of ordering, for a good price.
On the other hand, the fact that so much stuff was only developed so late in the game does not bode well for the maturity of the product. That's where founders may find themselves to be suckers if things go badly. Fingers crossed that they won't and it will be a reasonably smooth launch!
RE:
Saw this awhile ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/1r6pqmg/lets_gooooo_320c_confirmed_for_indx/
it looks like higher temps can be achieved, but measuring them is the issue. The standard thermistor it appears Prusa has in their pipeline only goes to 300 C.
Oh no, not Prusa choosing thermistors that aren't appropriate for the whole operating range of the machine again! I was just starting to forget the eternal frustration of MINTEMP errors whenever I used my MK3 for the colder half of the year, because the thermistors they chose weren't able to distinguish between a 10°C (50°F) room and a broken cable, and always erred on the side of excessive caution rather than even trying to heat the bed and see if the reading changed or not. Ugh that was so infuriating! At least so far I personally don't need to print above 300°C yet, certainly not for half of all my prints, but I'd have hoped Prusa would've more conclusively learned from that past mistake. Maybe they'll use something different for INDX that does allow a higher range?
RE: Update...(Kind of)
INDX uses a contact-less infrared sensor and not a thermistor.
Also, the limitation of 300°C is the same on both the Prusa and the (somewhat) printer-agnostic dev kit
RE: Update...(Kind of)
The cynic in me thinks that the 300 degree limit is a marketing idea. I know Bondtech have mentioned an industrial version of INDX which is bound to have higher limits.
Its really not a problem for me, I've no urge to print above 300, but I'm pretty confident the lunatics on here will find a way to achieve it if I ever feel the need to.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Without an actively heated chamber, >300 doesn’t really unlock much except for ticking off a box on a marketing brochure.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
I'm glad you've mentioned this, as I liked the idea of being able to print ASA but wondered where that sat with INDX a chamber heating g element may be on the horizon when I swap out the nextruder, which I have no plan what to do with when it's removed.
I did see someone making a C1 mini that utilises the Nextruder, but no idea on cost yet with the customs panels etc it will command.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Just as a note, the operating temperature range for indoor equipment is typically 15 to 35degC so operating down at 10degC is at best pushing your luck.
A quick google says the Mk3 operating temperature range is indeed 15 to 35degC, not sure Prusa can be considered at fault for this one.
Saw this awhile ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/1r6pqmg/lets_gooooo_320c_confirmed_for_indx/
it looks like higher temps can be achieved, but measuring them is the issue. The standard thermistor it appears Prusa has in their pipeline only goes to 300 C.
Oh no, not Prusa choosing thermistors that aren't appropriate for the whole operating range of the machine again! I was just starting to forget the eternal frustration of MINTEMP errors whenever I used my MK3 for the colder half of the year, because the thermistors they chose weren't able to distinguish between a 10°C (50°F) room and a broken cable, and always erred on the side of excessive caution rather than even trying to heat the bed and see if the reading changed or not. Ugh that was so infuriating! At least so far I personally don't need to print above 300°C yet, certainly not for half of all my prints, but I'd have hoped Prusa would've more conclusively learned from that past mistake. Maybe they'll use something different for INDX that does allow a higher range?
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Just as a note, the operating temperature range for indoor equipment is typically 15 to 35degC so operating down at 10degC is at best pushing your luck.
A quick google says the Mk3 operating temperature range is indeed 15 to 35degC, not sure Prusa can be considered at fault for this one.
Looks like I misremembered the problematic temperature range, you’re correct that the issue actually started when it was as warm as 15°C, or 59°F. I couldn't really believe that it failed in such a common only slightly chilly temperature, so mentally rounded down to the nearest colder round number. Even now in the late spring it's routinely colder than that for much of the night (today it'll be below that temperature until 10AM here).
Otherwise, yeah, that's roughly what Prusa's staff generally responded as well, but it turns out that a LOT of people tend to use their 3D printers in garages (for noise and air quality reasons, amongst others), and generally expect them to be functional year round. And to be clear, the printer works perfectly fine in those temperatures, it's only a software lockout that prevents it until you use a hairdryer or your hands to warm up the bed and nozzle slightly. When users disabled the mintemp lockout but kept the thermal model enabled, it worked fine and even still correctly detected a disconnected thermistor and shut down the heating within seconds. But still Prusa's staff refused to implement that fix (or other workarounds) in official firmware.
Here's the github issue, for anyone curious, nearly 200 comments over four years before the issue was eventually closed without resolution. https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/issues/3053
I suppose it should be water under the bridge at this point, I've been loving the core one since getting it last summer, but it turns out that when a product you otherwise love is nonfunctional for half the year (or requiring unpleasant manual workarounds constantly to convince the damn thing to start doing its job) due to a limitation that the support staff seems not to care about, that sticks with you as an enduring frustration. So yeah. I'm ecstatic about the INDX overall but I'm absolutely fed up with even the possibility of being limited by a poor choice of thermistor again.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
The scenario that you have laid out is why I am on the fence about Indx, everything looks great in the demos, etc but when you see the late design changes coming out, delays to shipping the founders edition it should give people pause for thought that this thing isn't fully baked (yet).
Hope I am wrong and it will be a smooth upgrade path but to my mind it has turbulence and rough ride written all over it.
Just as a note, the operating temperature range for indoor equipment is typically 15 to 35degC so operating down at 10degC is at best pushing your luck.
A quick google says the Mk3 operating temperature range is indeed 15 to 35degC, not sure Prusa can be considered at fault for this one.
Looks like I misremembered the problematic temperature range, you’re correct that the issue actually started when it was as warm as 15°C, or 59°F. I couldn't really believe that it failed in such a common only slightly chilly temperature, so mentally rounded down to the nearest colder round number. Even now in the late spring it's routinely colder than that for much of the night (today it'll be below that temperature until 10AM here).
Otherwise, yeah, that's roughly what Prusa's staff generally responded as well, but it turns out that a LOT of people tend to use their 3D printers in garages (for noise and air quality reasons, amongst others), and generally expect them to be functional year round. And to be clear, the printer works perfectly fine in those temperatures, it's only a software lockout that prevents it until you use a hairdryer or your hands to warm up the bed and nozzle slightly. When users disabled the mintemp lockout but kept the thermal model enabled, it worked fine and even still correctly detected a disconnected thermistor and shut down the heating within seconds. But still Prusa's staff refused to implement that fix (or other workarounds) in official firmware.
Here's the github issue, for anyone curious, nearly 200 comments over four years before the issue was eventually closed without resolution. https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/issues/3053
I suppose it should be water under the bridge at this point, I've been loving the core one since getting it last summer, but it turns out that when a product you otherwise love is nonfunctional for half the year (or requiring unpleasant manual workarounds constantly to convince the damn thing to start doing its job) due to a limitation that the support staff seems not to care about, that sticks with you as an enduring frustration. So yeah. I'm ecstatic about the INDX overall but I'm absolutely fed up with even the possibility of being limited by a poor choice of thermistor again.
RE: Update...(Kind of)
While I understand and share some of the concerns described here, I also see several encouraging choices made by Prusa regarding the INDX upgrade. Just to name a few:
- While it’s uglier than the initial (printed) tool docks, the purpose of the fence is to improve the rigidity of the tool dock. They care about longevity of the system.
- Rather than opting for the tried and true (but manual and slow) method of tool offset calibration of the XL, Prusa chose to offer an automated, faster and more precise calibration option.
- Finally a nozzle wiper in a Prusa printer. The ability to avoid using a prime tower also frees up the admittedly limited build volume of the C1.
- An accelerometer built into the tool head of a Prusa printer.
With the above, the INDX upgrade not only offers the benefits of a tool changer, but also brings the C1’s feature list more in line with the competition.
Would it have been nice to know about these additions earlier (if they indeed are not late changes to the overal plan)? Yes.
And in fact, I would also actually like to see more demonstrations of the above new features. I’d like to see videos showing input calibration with the built in accelerometer, and the tool offset calibration using the eddy current sensors. Also, the ease of use of swapping tools, loading and unloading filament, how long it takes the larger internal volume to reach 55 degrees C (if ever), how easy is it to unclog a nozzle, what overhangs are achievable, etc.
If I was less impulsive, I’d have waited until I knew all of the above before I ordered the 8T upgrade kit. But the above points were enough for me personally to bite the bullet. Honestly, the alternative for me would have been building a Voron, either a Stealthchanger or also with INDX. And that would have cost me a lot of time and money too, so…
RE: Update...(Kind of)
Interesting observation: on the bondtech order page, the upgrade kit has no pictures anymore. On the one hand good as the old pic had a lot of the new components not being shown, on the other hand bad as I would have liked an updated one...