Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I am trying to print the object shown below out of IEMAI PC-CF, and it keeps lifting off the print bed. The 1st try lifted pretty early in the print, so I restarted the print, but this time had brim turned on and set to 10mm. It made it further into the print before lifting but obviously lifted before the print finished.
Printer setup
- filament dryer is set to 85°C (it did shut off at some point during the night.)
- hardened 0.6mm HF nozzle, layer height is set to 0.15mm
- vertical walls set to 5, horizontal set to standard (trying to produce a watertight print)
- using a Stain Sheet (which according to Prusa doesn't require glue/magigoo)
- standard temp set forth by Prusa for their PC blend with CF, which match the settings recomended by IEMAI
Any assistance or ideas would be greatly appreciated
RE:
I've been printing with IEMAI PC-CF and when Prusa said that it prints fine on a satin sheet, they were referring to their own filament and not a 3rd party. With this filament, I have to use Magigoo PC to get it to stick to the plate. I've also since stopped printing with IEMEI PC-CF because (in my opinion) it's crap. It's just too brittle. It's worse than PLA. I guess the upside is that it's UV and heat tolerant but then I think ASA might be a better choice. Or maybe wait until Prusament PC-CF is back in stock.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I've been printing with IEMAI PC-CF and when Prusa said that it prints fine on a satin sheet, they were referring to their own filament and not a 3rd party. With this filament, I have to use Magigoo PC to get it to stick to the plate. I've also since stopped printing with IEMEI PC-CF because (in my opinion) it's crap. It's just too brittle. It's worse than PLA. I guess the upside is that it's UV and heat tolerant but then I think ASA might be a better choice. Or maybe wait until Prusament PC-CF is back in stock.
Ok that makes sense, it must be whatever Prusa uses for the blend helps it stick. I can certainly get a different brand PC-CF, but need the strength so pretty much have to use that. I'm printing prototypes that will eventually machine out of PEI and PC-CF is pretty much the only thing that has the same strength/ heat deflection. And I cannot use Nylon as its going to hold water and just drink everything.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I've been printing with IEMAI PC-CF and when Prusa said that it prints fine on a satin sheet, they were referring to their own filament and not a 3rd party. With this filament, I have to use Magigoo PC to get it to stick to the plate. I've also since stopped printing with IEMEI PC-CF because (in my opinion) it's crap. It's just too brittle. It's worse than PLA. I guess the upside is that it's UV and heat tolerant but then I think ASA might be a better choice. Or maybe wait until Prusament PC-CF is back in stock.
Maybe I got lucky/you got unlucky because the stuff I've got is anything but brittle. Also haven't needed any adhesive on the Satin plate.
Did you dry it sufficiently ?
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I've been printing with IEMAI PC-CF and when Prusa said that it prints fine on a satin sheet, they were referring to their own filament and not a 3rd party. With this filament, I have to use Magigoo PC to get it to stick to the plate. I've also since stopped printing with IEMEI PC-CF because (in my opinion) it's crap. It's just too brittle. It's worse than PLA. I guess the upside is that it's UV and heat tolerant but then I think ASA might be a better choice. Or maybe wait until Prusament PC-CF is back in stock.
Maybe I got lucky/you got unlucky because the stuff I've got is anything but brittle. Also haven't needed any adhesive on the Satin plate.
Did you dry it sufficiently ?
The OP stated he dried it first at 85C. Also, I dried it for 8 hrs and it wouldn’t stick to the plate without glue. Some people have success with this filament, some don’t. It’s probably just a QC issue. Except for small parts, this filament is extremely brittle. I’ve tried different combinations of temps and extrusion multipliers and have concluded that at least the roll I have is crap.
RE:
This is quite a large model. Even if PCCF filaments warp a lost less than regular PC it’s always preferable to take every possible step to fight this issue.
First of all, why 0.15mm layer height with a 0.6 nozzle ?.The usual for this nozzle is 0,3mm layer. Setting 0.15mm you increase the printing time with no benefits and interlayer adhesion is weaker. Also, 5 vertical perimeters is a lot with a 0.6mm nozzle. Probably 3 perimeters would be enough. What infill percentage did you use ?. I wouldn’t go above 30% in order to keep warping under control.
Another thing, I always use the smooth plate printing large PC parts. It has much better adhesion than the satin. Of course, the smooth plate requires glue for printing PC ( Magigoo PC, 3Dlac..) to act both as adhesive and release agent.
You wisely set a brim, but I’d make it larger (to the edges of the printing area of the plate ), Set gap of brim to model to 0 mm.
Last but no least, as said by other users, if Prusament PCCF isn’t in stock, try to purchase a well known quality brand. Alternatively, ASA filaments have better UV resistance than PC and might be a good option, unless this model will be exposed to very high temperatures.
If I had to bet, I’d say that the main issue here is that IEMAI filament and, to a lesser extent, printing without adhesive and/or the high number of perimeters. Possibly the infill too, if it’s more than 35%.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
This is quite a large model. Even if PCCF filaments warp a lost less than regular PC it’s always preferable to take every possible step to fight this issue.
First of all, why 0.15mm layer height with a 0.6 nozzle ?.The usual for this nozzle is 0,3mm layer. Setting 0.15mm you increase the printing time with no benefits and interlayer adhesion is weaker. Also, 5 vertical perimeters is a lot with a 0.6mm nozzle. Probably 3 perimeters would be enough. What infill percentage did you use ?. I wouldn’t go above 30% in order to keep warping under control.
Another thing, I always use the smooth plate printing large PC parts. It has much better adhesion than the satin. Of course, the smooth plate requires glue for printing PC ( Magigoo PC, 3Dlac..) to act both as adhesive and release agent.
You wisely set a brim, but I’d make it larger (to the edges of the printing area of the plate ), Set gap of brim to model to 0 mm.
Last but no least, as said by other users, if Prusament PCCF isn’t in stock, try to purchase a well known quality brand. Alternatively, ASA filaments have better UV resistance than PC and might be a good option, unless this model will be exposed to very high temperatures.
If I had to bet, I’d say that the main issue here is that IEMAI filament and, to a lesser extent, printing without adhesive and/or the high number of perimeters. Possibly the infill too, if it’s more than 35%.
I am using .15mm for the layer height in combination with over extrusion and the extra layers to help make the print air/watertight. I had success with this same model on the XL that another department owns, but they only want PLA to be printed on that printer. Now my department has a Core One, so I can do stuff besides PLA. Prusa recommends using the smaller layer height and over extrusion with at least 2-4 layers with PC for watertight, but when I did my initial design I was using PLA and that requires 4-6. When I use only 4 layers, the slicer does weird things with certain sections because the design was done with extrusion math in mind and creates random voids without 5.
I have ordered MagiGoo based upon other's recommendations and will try it on a smooth sheet. I was using the Satin, as the way I understood it, I could print directly on the sheet without issue.
is there a too large value for the brim, I took the stock 5mm and doubled it to 10mm? Will changing the gap to 0mm make the bring hard to remove?
Is there a recommended brand for PC-CF if prusament isn't available? I went with what I could find easily and that didn't have absolutely horrible reviews. I needs the PC for the strength, so its not really something that I can change.
I will definitely add adhesion to the print the next time I try. The infill is concentric with 20% infill and combines layers, when possible, I am basically using the infill to make sure that the trough in the middle has more support when printing and not just bridging a large section.
RE:
Is there a recommended brand for PC-CF if prusament isn't available? I went with what I could find easily and that didn't have absolutely horrible reviews. I needs the PC for the strength, so its not really something that I can change.
I will definitely add adhesion to the print the next time I try. The infill is concentric with 20% infill and combines layers, when possible, I am basically using the infill to make sure that the trough in the middle has more support when printing and not just bridging a large section.
One thing I'm starting to learn about PC-CF is that the larger parts also need to be annealed afterwards to strengthen interlayer adhesion with this filament type. Otherwise, it's very brittle and can easy to snap across layer lines.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
Yes, as a general rule CF/GF filled filaments are more brittle that their non fiber counterparts. Annealing is a good solution, but you need additional equipment to do that, because the print must be heated for some time at 100C or more, The Core One can’t reach that chamber temperature, I believe that the Sunlu Filadrier E2 is one of the few non-industrial filament driers able to work also as annealing device, although it’s quite expensive.
Another thing, if you want that model to be air/watertight but there’re no special requirements of heat endurance or hardness, PP is a better option. Amongst the filaments easily available, it’s the best for watertight models. Besides, I don’t agree with Prusa that smaller layer height improves “water tightness”. If anything, it’s worse because a higher layer improves interlayer adhesion.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
IEMAI PC-CF is crap. Period.
And I don't care what Prusa says, I use Magigoo even with Prusament PCCF (which is excellent).
And Artur5 is right, 0.15 mm layer height for a 0.6 mm nozzle is unreasonable. Especially if you're prototyping.
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
RE:
IEMAI PC-CF is crap. Period.
That's just a hot-take that stifles discussion. (period 😂)
Honestly you've got to take a step back , the reviews of it are very mixed...some people saying it's great for the money, others saying it's awful.It all points towards major QA issues, or users not bothering to set up temps/EMs
It's under half the price of Prusa PCCF, which has a profile finely tuned for it by experts in the field...that's hardly a fair fight, now is it?
Personally I really can't complain for the money...prints well, parts are strong, bed/layer adhesion is ok, parts look really quite nice. (I use 0.2mm layer height with at 0.4mm nozzle)
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
IEMAI PC-CF is crap. Period.
That's just a hot-take that stifles discussion. (period 😂)
Honestly you've got to take a step back , the reviews of it are very mixed...some people saying it's great for the money, others saying it's awful.It all points towards major QA issues, or users not bothering to set up temps/EMsIt's under half the price of Prusa PCCF, which has a profile finely tuned for it by experts in the field...that's hardly a fair fight, now is it?
Personally I really can't complain for the money...prints well, parts are strong, bed/layer adhesion is ok, parts look really quite nice. (I use 0.2mm layer height with at 0.4mm nozzle)
I’m finding it prints best with a 0.6mm nozzle and 0.3mm layer height (for the larger stuff). Then I’ve been annealing it at 100C in a reflow oven I’ve repurposed from my SMD work.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
Then I’ve been annealing it at 100C in a reflow oven I’ve repurposed from my SMD work.
Typo, I meant to write "140C"
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I also use glue with PC-CF on the satin plate. Even the Prusament variety causes problems from time to time. I never have an adhesion or a release problem if I use the glue. TBC, it doesn't take much glue, and the benefits are huge.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
The majority of the parts I print from PC CF are smallish, so I think I get away with most warping issues that many suffer with it.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
Update to this. I have come to the same conclusion that many other people in this thread have stated, that IEMAI is just crap. It may work for smaller prints, but once I got the print to stick to the bed via glue and a custom designed brim, the layers wouldn't stick together.
On a side note, I went back to PETG but kept getting layer shift issues that others were complaining about. I had everything set to the way everyone recommended but would still get it at least once per print with this large print. The way I solved that was to use the Prusament PETG filament in the slicer instead of the Overture since that was the material I was using.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I have successfully printed with Iemai Pccf in the past and couldn't understand the negative reviews here.
I printed all the parts for a Prusa MK4S with it and used it for that purpose.
Now I have printed parts for a Prusa Mini with the Core One.
At first it was relatively problem-free, but then I switched to a new roll and everything was different, and not for the better.
No matter which plate I used, with or without adhesive, not even the smallest part stuck.
Since it didn't even stick to the smooth plate, I sent the stuff back.
The Iemai customer service then contacted me and asked for more details.
I described the problem and also asked if they had changed the mixture.
They confirmed this for me. The filament had been changed due to color variations.
I also noticed that the new roll was slightly darker.
Customer service has now sent me a new roll free of charge and I will test it again.
It would be a shame if it turned out that the material had been changed for the worse.
The first roll was perfectly usable and really good in terms of appearance and layer adhesion.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I have successfully printed with Iemai Pccf in the past and couldn't understand the negative reviews here.
I printed all the parts for a Prusa MK4S with it and used it for that purpose.
Now I have printed parts for a Prusa Mini with the Core One.
At first it was relatively problem-free, but then I switched to a new roll and everything was different, and not for the better.
No matter which plate I used, with or without adhesive, not even the smallest part stuck.
Since it didn't even stick to the smooth plate, I sent the stuff back.
The Iemai customer service then contacted me and asked for more details.
I described the problem and also asked if they had changed the mixture.
They confirmed this for me. The filament had been changed due to color variations.
I also noticed that the new roll was slightly darker.
Customer service has now sent me a new roll free of charge and I will test it again.
It would be a shame if it turned out that the material had been changed for the worse.
The first roll was perfectly usable and really good in terms of appearance and layer adhesion.
Yep, I couldn't understand the negative reviews either. I have very few problems with the roll I've got.
Although thats a bit of a mess created by Iemai which should really have been detected in testing, people are far too quick to write off a filament due to one bad experience with it.
Saying that I hope the well known filament manufacturers will start producing and selling a more reasonable priced PC CF thats available in Europe, it really is a fantastic material and I'd like to use it a lot more.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
I was able to get smaller parts to run with the IEMAI PC-CF. I think the filament profile could certainly be created and tuned to run better, but as it stands anything that would take up most of the build area of the Core1 or is more than ~20mm in height just doesn't work. I was able to create a custom Brim that made it adhere to the bed, which just caused it to lift from itself (I wish I would have taken some images of this). I did purchase a 2nd roll of the material and had the same issue, so it wasn't just 1 bad roll but multiple.
RE: Printing with PC-CF, keeps lifting off print bed
Same as @Daniel Laszlo, I was able to print some smaller Core One replacement parts with IEMAI PC-CF and they were fine, but anything larger had terrible inter-layer adhesion and the parts were too brittle to use without annealing. It could be that the roll I had was part of a “bad batch”, however I’m not willing to shell out $45 for another roll to take a chance.