PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
Ever since I got the extra print sheets (satin and textured) for my Core One, I have struggled with adhesion problems printing PETG on the satin sheet. Small parts come off entirely, large parts peel off at the corners and may keep peeling throughout the print until they are halfway detached. The filament is dry and otherwise prints cleanly; the plate has been freshly cleaned with dishwashing detergent.
As a workaround I have printed small parts on the smooth PEI sheet, and have added massive brims to larger parts. But I now need to print a larger part where I don't want to use a brim. (Two halves of a cylinder which will be assembled; I want a clean seam there.) What else can I do to print them with good adhesion?
I have avoided glue etc. so far since I always felt it is a parameter that's hard to control and reproduce exactly -- should I give it a shot? (Any specific recommendations what to get?) Or should I get a CryoGrip plate?
I mean, this is just PETG -- it's supposed to be an "easy" filament, so I am hoping for a one-size-fits-all solution that takes the tweaking and failed attempts out of this equation. Or is that simply wishful thinking?
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
it almost sounds like you don't have the bed hot enough. can you share your gcode and/or a 3mf of your print? remember to zip them to post.
other questions that come to mind are "do you have the vents/door open?" "do you have the exhaust fans set to auto(if so what temp) or fully on or off?"
RE:
I mean, this is just PETG -- it's supposed to be an "easy" filament, so I am hoping for a one-size-fits-all solution that takes the tweaking and failed attempts out of this equation. Or is that simply wishful thinking?
Pick up the BIQU CryoGrip Glacier and ditch the satin sheet. I don't even ever have to clean them. I just wipe any debris off the surface. PETG sticks very well to it.
I only use 2 sheets now. The CryoGrip for pretty much everything and a G10 specifically for PC
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I am beginning to think these satin sheets are a bit of hit and miss, I have no trouble yet with mine and I only clean it with IPA. The textured sheet gave me some issues with PETG until I learned to clean it using dish soap and then use window cleaner between prints, no IPA on the textured sheet. For large pieces I have increased first layer bed temp a notch and chamber temp when fighting warping on the textured sheet. But nothing special for the satin sheet. One trick I stumbled upon is that a print of tpu on the satin sheet gave it a really good clean once pealed off, that pulled everything off the sheet.
/Anders
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
it almost sounds like you don't have the bed hot enough. can you share your gcode and/or a 3mf of your print? remember to zip them to post.
other questions that come to mind are "do you have the vents/door open?" "do you have the exhaust fans set to auto(if so what temp) or fully on or off?"
I am printing with the default "Generic PETG" settings in PrusaSlicer, 0.15 mm Balanced. Bed temperature is 85°C, fans are on Auto. Since it is currently rather chilly (14°C) in the basement where the printer lives, I find that setting the vents half-open lets the chamber temperature come up to 30°C soon, then stabilize at the target temperature of 35°C.
The zipped .3mf file is attached (if the forum software plays along...) Thanks for taking a look!
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I like my satin sheets. I apply a little Vision Miner Nano Polymer Adhesive and everything sticks very well (PLA, PETG, PA, PC, ASA, etc) and removes easily. It lasts for 15-20 prints, then I clean it with 90% IPA, reapply and print some more. It works well with textured sheets as well.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I like my satin sheets. I apply a little Vision Miner Nano Polymer Adhesive and everything sticks very well (PLA, PETG, PA, PC, ASA, etc) and removes easily. It lasts for 15-20 prints, then I clean it with 90% IPA, reapply and print some more. It works well with textured sheets as well.
Be careful with Nano Polymer and ASA on a PEI sheet. For larger parts you could end up ripping off the coating. Also if you print large(ish) PC and ASA parts I would recommend printing on a G10 surface with a rigid steel backing. Otherwise, I've had parts pull the sheet off the bed when cooling.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I don't use Nano Polymer on PEI sheets, in fact I don't use PEI sheets at all. I may just be lucky, but I have not had an issue with large PC, PA, or ASA parts on either my C1 or XL's.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I like my satin sheet, but it can be marginal for adhesion. I tend to print small fragile PETG parts, so if they're ready to fall off after the sheet cools, so much the better. Just don't let go until then! I clean before every print with IPA. I can envision having problems with larger prints. The grip on the PEI sheet is often a bit much and can damage the sheet with anything other than bog standard PLA. Even PLA blend is risky, but a glue layer seems to protect the sheet. I rub it quite thin.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
Would also be careful using Nano Polymer Adhesive on polyester-resin powder coated sheets (like the Satin) as well. I ruined 2 sheets before switching to fiberglass.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
looking through your 3mf file, the only thing that sticks out to me is that you have your "Filaments->Filament->Chamber->Minimum" set to zero which means it won't wait for the chamber to warm up before printing. Try setting that to 30.
i haven't messed with "Filaments->Cooling->Cooling Slowdown Logic" myself, curious what it did for you.
you could also try just "stuffing" the filament for the first layer, set the "Filaments->Filament->Nozzle->First Layer" to 255 or even 260. i almost always find i gotta crank the first layer temp for good stickage, regardless of plate/filament type.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
Hi Jürgen, Looking at your 3MF, I understand your problem.
You can try testing a margin (inside and outside with a distance of 0.05 mm or zero). The area with four lines is too small for proper adhesion.You could also reduce the first layer from 0.20 to 0.15 or 0.10 mm. And on top of that, add a Z offset (Z distance) of -0.05 mm in the printer menu under General.
I don't know which PETG you are using, but I never go above 100 mm/s because large prints always warp. It's better to go slower.
Is your dish soap moisturizing? If so, rinse with hot water and rub dry.
Mods for Core One: Core One HT 450 degrees, Comfortable display , Very fast print start and Reducing noises
Mods for Prusa XL: Very fast print start
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
Thank you all for the suggestions! I will try some of them, e.g. the first layer temperature, height and distance, as well as the minimum chamber temperature. (The latter being more of a convenience though: I have watched the temperature manually before starting the print; had forgotten about the minimum temperature setting...)
I am pretty confident that a brim on the outside would help a lot with adhesion. But as mentioned in the original post, I want to avoid that in the present print to get a clean seam between the two parts when they are assembled. (This will become even more relevant when I add the planned hammertone texture to the outer surface.) A brim on the inside only would not be a problem, but in my experience it does not help much since it gets peeled away by the shrinking part -- or is there a trick to make a brim or other support structure on the inside only more effective?
I have also ordered a Cryogrip sheet yesterday as suggested by @hyiger. Looks like it will only be shipped out on Monday though -- do folks at 3DJake get Fridays off?
RE:
Probably you already know this but, just in case, if you print PETG (or filaments like ASA, TPU, PC ) on a Cryogrip or a smooth plate don't forget to use adhesive/separating agent. Else you risk damaging the surface, be it PEI or whatever Biqu employs on the Cryogrip. This isn't so important on models with a small contact area with the bed, but it's paramount for large parts covering a significant area of the plate.
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I've never found the need to use adhesive for PETG on the Cryogrip. Same with ASA and PC. However I've been using a G10 plate for the later when the parts are on the large side.
TPU definitely needs a separating agent, especially if it is foaming (TPU Air).
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
Only after time. If it sticks to much after 1-2 years, use hair spay as a release agent.
I've never found the need to use adhesive for PETG on the Cryogrip. Same with ASA and PC. However I've been using a G10 plate for the later when the parts are on the large side.
TPU definitely needs a separating agent, especially if it is foaming (TPU Air).
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I've never found the need to use adhesive for PETG on the Cryogrip. Same with ASA and PC. However I've been using a G10 plate for the later when the parts are on the large side.
TPU definitely needs a separating agent, especially if it is foaming (TPU Air).
I don’t own a Cryogrip (yet..) so you surely now better, but I’ve seen quite a few picctures of damaged Cryogrip plates after removing a print and I expect that they didn’t use releasing agent. Smooth PEI plates from Prusa and other brands definitively need releasing agent for ASA, PETG, TPU and PC. As I said, usually small models aren’t an issue but large parts... well. it’s your plate’s life 😋
RE: PETG on satin plate -- adhesion issues
I have printed PETG, PLA, PCTG, PPA and ASA covering almost the entire sheet and have not needed an adhesive/release agent. Smaller parts with PC as well. In fact I severely damaged a Cryo sheet using adhesive with ASA. As mentioned TPU sticks too well and for sure needs a release agent.
For me (in the US) these sheets are often on sale for $20 USD ($29 regularly) and I can get them delivered sometimes on the same day or next day at the latest.
I know... It's annoying that I seem to be a tireless salesman for these things but I can't recommend it enough. I can rub my fingers all over it and never have to clean it.