High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I am starting to put a shopping list together for some more print sheets, nozzles and filaments for my Core One. Came across the "high flow Obxidian" nozzles, and realized that I don't understand their intended use: https://www.prusa3d.com/product/e3d-prusa-nozzle-high-flow-obxidian-0-4-mm/
My understanding is that you would use the hardened Obxidian nozzles to work with abrasive filaments, i.e. those which include carbon fiber, glass fiber or other solid particles. But I also understand that the "high flow" capability is achieved by dividing the filament channel into multiple smaller-diameter branches inside, for more contact area with the heater and hence better/faster heat transfer. Which, when used with filaments that include solid particles or fibers, seems like a great way to increase the risk of clogged hotends?!
So, when would you use the "high-flow & hardened" combination? Is it a good idea at all? Or do these hotends have some other design to achieve "high flow" capability, without reducing the internal channel diameter? Thanks for your advice!
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I often used this nozzle to print composite filament without issue, but I already saw people getting clogs with it, so I think it depends on the filament (length and rate of carbone/glass fibers).
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I don't have hands-on experience with high-flow Obxidian nozzles. I use Obxidian on all my printers, from Mk4S to Core One to XL. Love them. I don't use any high-flow. Had nothing but issues with them when they came with the Mk4S upgrades, and life's too short and things need to get done, so why bother. And for all the reasons you mentioned, combining high-flow with Obxidian doesn't sound like the greatest idea unless you never intend to touch materials that require a hardened nozzle and only buy Obxidian to never replace the nozzle again.
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
High flow nozzles are mostly pointless; manufacturer's include them because others do and it looks like a plus to the innocent newbie buyer.
HF nozzles only have a noticeable benefit for large prints where there are straight runs of extrusion long enough for the head to accelerate to a speed too great for a regular nozzle - very few prints are big enough for a HF nozzle to make more than 5% time difference. Their complex internal shape makes them more likely to (partially) clog and much harder to clear.
Hardened nozzles are necessary for many filaments but if you stick to PLA, PETG and the like you will see little benefit.
Hardened HF nozzles are, for most users for most of the time, a waste of money.
Cheerio,
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I use mainly pla of various textures and petg.
I got the hf obxidian nozzle so that I would print some sparkly filaments my goddaughter likes. I put the nozzle in a few months back and haven't taken it out since because I'm lazy. So far, the nozzle has worked flawlessly, I literally have nothing to complain about.
But, you stick to pla and petg, it makes no sense to buy one. Also, you'll probably need to fiddle with the settings of each filament and raise the temperature by 5-10 degrees C.
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
The way Prusa describes it seems reasonable though- high flow nozzles offer a small benefit at 0.2 layer height, but "unlock" larger layer heights at obviously significant speed improvements (and yes, quality reduction), that the standard flow nozzle would struggle with.
High flow nozzles are mostly pointless; manufacturer's include them because others do and it looks like a plus to the innocent newbie buyer.
HF nozzles only have a noticeable benefit for large prints where there are straight runs of extrusion long enough for the head to accelerate to a speed too great for a regular nozzle - very few prints are big enough for a HF nozzle to make more than 5% time difference. Their complex internal shape makes them more likely to (partially) clog and much harder to clear.
Hardened nozzles are necessary for many filaments but if you stick to PLA, PETG and the like you will see little benefit.
Hardened HF nozzles are, for most users for most of the time, a waste of money.
Cheerio,
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
Also, you'll probably need to fiddle with the settings of each filament and raise the temperature by 5-10 degrees C.
Not for the Obxidian. Other hardened nozzles, maybe. Never had to do it for tungsten carbide but for Nozzle x (the few days it stayed on one of my printers)
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
very few prints are big enough for a HF nozzle to make more than 5% time difference.
In fact, I have seen many times that the HF would have made my print take longer than the standard nozzle settings (by comparing print times in Prusaslicer, for fun). Why, don't know, don't care.
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
Also, you'll probably need to fiddle with the settings of each filament and raise the temperature by 5-10 degrees C.
Not for the Obxidian. Other hardened nozzles, maybe. Never had to do it for tungsten carbide but for Nozzle x (the few days it stayed on one of my printers)
I don't mean to argue, but the HF Obxidian was giving me problems with underextrusion when using unaltered filament profiles. Every profile I've used since has its printing temp raised at least +5 C and they've worked quite well.
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
Many thanks to all of you -- great perspective! 👍
I think I will complement my stock nozzle (brass high flow) with a non-HF Obsidian nozzle. That should keep me as safe as possible from nozzle clogs with fiber-loaded filament. And I assume that most prints with fiber-reinforced material will not be done at speed anyway, but in structural mode for maximum stability, so I should not be missing much with the non-HF nozzle.
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
don't mean to argue, but the HF Obxidian was giving me problems with underextrusion when using unaltered filament profiles.
That's why 3D printing is still closer to voodoo than science… 🙂
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
RE:
Any material may be abrasive. It depends on pigments and other additives. Like titanium dioxide commonly used as white pigment. So brass nozzles worn out over time even if you print only basic PLA. The problem is that you don't know when. And when you start noticing print quality degradation, it's kind of late.
ObXidian, Diamondback, or other hardened nozzles will give you peace of mind. You would not have to think about nozzle replacement ever.
HF or non HF? The limiting factor is volumetric flow rate of the filament. For example Silk PLA has it low and has to be printed slowly, so you would never see benefit of HF nozzle. But with regular filaments (or HF filaments) it may make a difference and usually does (with silent mode off).
I don't believe that HF nozles are more likely to clog. Those internal channels are much wider than 0.4mm or 0.6mm tip of the nozzle. If filament particles can go trough the tip without any issues, it should go trough internal channels too.
I don't believe that HF nozles are more likely to clog. Those internal channels are much wider than 0.4mm or 0.6mm tip of the nozzle.
There is more internal surface area and if a user is careless when, for example, changing from a higher melting point filament to a lower without high temperature flushing there will be much more unmelted residue to interfere with flow. The higher internal volume may also make them more sensitive to steam pressure from damp filament.
Cheerio,
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I have been using HF obxidian for about a year on all materials. Of the abrasive materials, I mainly use Prusament PETG CF and I have never had a nozzle clog. I have never changed the settings. I just print to the preset profiles. I have the HARDENED nozzle set in the printer settings. I assume that this setting prevents clogging.
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I have the HARDENED nozzle set in the printer settings. I assume that this setting prevents clogging.
Thanks! I can't find printer presets for hardened nozzles in PrusaSlicer, only for high flow (HF) nozzles. Where did you get the settings for the hardened nozzle, and how do they differ from the regular brass ones?
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I have the HARDENED nozzle set in the printer settings. I assume that this setting prevents clogging.
To my understanding this does nothing (and there are no "hardened" printer setting"). It's just a "flag" that the firmware uses to compare to the Filament Settings>Advanced>Filament Properties>Abrasive Material setting in PrusaSlicer. If the material is set to abrasive in the slicer and the slicer sees this in the gcode, but has not been told it has a hardened nozzle in the printer's hardware settings, it will throw an alert so that users don't ruin their brass nozzle.
Clogging is very dependent on filament, temperature, and model characteristics. Obviously the HF nozzle doesn't clog all the time, or Prusa wouldn't include it. But the gist of this topic thread is that—generally speaking—in the hands of many users it has shown to be more prone to clogging than non HF.
Formerly known on this forum as @fuchsr -- https://foxrun3d.com/
RE: High-Flow hardened nozzles -- good idea?
I've been using the non HF version on my XL for awhile now and have been happy with it. I will say that the PCCF does tend to build up on the nozzle and it's extremely hard to clean off. Therefore I'm not sure the coating helps much with sticking.
That being said I've ordered the non HF nozzle for the Core One as with the stuff I'm printing I'm more concerned about dimensional quality and therefore use the structural profiles. At those speeds there's really no benefit from the HF nozzle. So I'll just avoid the possibility of clogging no matter how unlikely it is.