Nextruder vs INDX
I'm excited about the INDX as an addition to the Core ONE, but I also really like how the Nextruder works and is servicable and all that. As much as I am interested in the INDX, I need to know what the consequences of replacing the toolhead will be. It's not like you can just swap back to the Nextruder when you want. Issues like tuning and getting rid of VFAs would now be different, and as a third-party product, how can we rely on Prusa for the same level of support?
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I am sure we will be revisiting some teething issues which were already solved for the Nextruder. Maybe not VFAs, which seem to be produced by the (unchanged) XY positioning system, but e.g. bed probing and parts cooling.
But the INDX will be supported by Prusa, who have played an active role in the hardware and firmware integration and will also sell this solution directly -- apparently starting in Q2. As we all know, that does not necessarily mean that things will go smoothly from the start. But that Prusa will do their best to fix any issues over time.
RE:
I am sure we will be revisiting some teething issues which were already solved for the Nextruder. Maybe not VFAs, which seem to be produced by the (unchanged) XY positioning system, but e.g. bed probing and parts cooling.
But the INDX will be supported by Prusa, who have played an active role in the hardware and firmware integration and will also sell this solution directly -- apparently starting in Q2. As we all know, that does not necessarily mean that things will go smoothly from the start. But that Prusa will do their best to fix any issues over time.
I'm still curious why Prusa didn't (or couldn't) adapt the XL tool changer system to the Core One. After all, it's been out now for 3 years? I guess they couldn't get the price down to a reasonable level perhaps? The nextruder is large so I can imagine in such a scenario only being able to fit 2-4 tool heads but I would have been fine with that.
The Core One should have been an "XL mini" but then there wouldn't have been a viable upgrade path from the MK4 I suppose.
I'm also more interested at the moment in the 400C heat block than I am with the INDX. Obviously the two won't mix.
Once I attach the INDX I guess I'll want to build a Voron style CoreXY that can work with the left-over Nextruder.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
The XL was using the best solution at the time, and I see the INDX as a few steps beyond that XL solution. It seems like a distillation of what actually needs to be swapped out (the filament path and the nozzle) from the consistent part (tool head, heater, filament driver, etc). Clearly, Bambu took a similar path with the H2C, but opted for a different (and in my opinion, slightly more complex and less flexible) solution. The technology has clearly advanced, and it would be cool to see an XL-sized system with an INDX-like setup, meaning more possible materials in the same form-factor.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
The XL was using the best solution at the time, and I see the INDX as a few steps beyond that XL solution. It seems like a distillation of what actually needs to be swapped out (the filament path and the nozzle) from the consistent part (tool head, heater, filament driver, etc). Clearly, Bambu took a similar path with the H2C, but opted for a different (and in my opinion, slightly more complex and less flexible) solution. The technology has clearly advanced, and it would be cool to see an XL-sized system with an INDX-like setup, meaning more possible materials in the same form-factor.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
The XL was using the best solution at the time, and I see the INDX as a few steps beyond that XL solution. It seems like a distillation of what actually needs to be swapped out (the filament path and the nozzle) from the consistent part (tool head, heater, filament driver, etc). Clearly, Bambu took a similar path with the H2C, but opted for a different (and in my opinion, slightly more complex and less flexible) solution. The technology has clearly advanced, and it would be cool to see an XL-sized system with an INDX-like setup, meaning more possible materials in the same form-factor.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
One advantage to the Nextruder - higher print max temp. 400 C vs 300C.
The XL was using the best solution at the time, and I see the INDX as a few steps beyond that XL solution. It seems like a distillation of what actually needs to be swapped out (the filament path and the nozzle) from the consistent part (tool head, heater, filament driver, etc). Clearly, Bambu took a similar path with the H2C, but opted for a different (and in my opinion, slightly more complex and less flexible) solution. The technology has clearly advanced, and it would be cool to see an XL-sized system with an INDX-like setup, meaning more possible materials in the same form-factor.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
Oops. Sorry for the multiple posts
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I'm excited about the INDX as an addition to the Core ONE, but I also really like how the Nextruder works and is servicable and all that. As much as I am interested in the INDX, I need to know what the consequences of replacing the toolhead will be.
One afterthought to my earlier comments:
Initially (before the teasers) I was skeptical that Prusa would actively adopt INDX in their printers. Relying on a third party for such a core piece of 3D printing technology as the extruder seemed like an unwise move to me. And given that Prusa had pitched their Nextruder as a major improvement and differentiating feature of their printers before, it also required them to swallow a large chunk of pride.
I take the fact that I was wrong, and that Prusa have indeed made that move, as a very good sign for the INDX technology. Prusa must have validated the hell out of it before they decided to adopt the technology -- because they could not risk downgrading the Nextruder (and hence their whole printers) to something inferior.
Fingers crossed that this is how it happened. (And that it was not simply a time of panic, in view of new Bambu product launches and shifting market shares.)
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I agree, the adoption of the INDX is a departure, given their R&D time on the Nextruder. That said, they have also moved away from open source, at least in ways that protect their bottom line, so the integration of third-party solutions is not an unexpected turn. I suspect that the Nextruder will continue and evolve ( at least a little bit) as a solid solution, and I really do hope that the INDX is just as reliable and awesome.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
The XL was using the best solution at the time, and I see the INDX as a few steps beyond that XL solution. It seems like a distillation of what actually needs to be swapped out (the filament path and the nozzle) from the consistent part (tool head, heater, filament driver, etc). Clearly, Bambu took a similar path with the H2C, but opted for a different (and in my opinion, slightly more complex and less flexible) solution. The technology has clearly advanced, and it would be cool to see an XL-sized system with an INDX-like setup, meaning more possible materials in the same form-factor.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
It is a question I am wondering too. On the one hand the INDX extruder has a better flow rate, load cell homing, 300C, and of course tool changing, but on the other hand what about the hot end cooler (I like the Noctua Cooler) and tried and tested bridging and overhang. Some of those things we won't know until its tested. The part cooling and thus overhangs and bridging concerns are my biggest concern because it looks like a rather basic part cooling ala like the OG MK3 release.
RE:
I think if Prusa has their head on straight they have a licensing deal that allows them to source parts if Bondtech decides to leave the market. Heck, it might even be a partial stock trade where Prusa takes investment capital from China. Wouldn't be the first time a sole proprietorship wanted to suck cash from the company.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
It is a question I am wondering too. On the one hand the INDX extruder has a better flow rate, load cell homing, 300C, and of course tool changing, but on the other hand what about the hot end cooler (I like the Noctua Cooler) and tried and tested bridging and overhang. Some of those things we won't know until its tested. The part cooling and thus overhangs and bridging concerns are my biggest concern because it looks like a rather basic part cooling ala like the OG MK3 release.
In the live chat he said they werent happy with the cooling on the formnext protoype if i remember correctly, but for the series version it would be able to print 70 degree overhangs or something like that. So the performance is based on promises so far, I think its not a bad idea to take a back seat ride until its fully proven and ironed out. They will probably update a thing or two aswell on the way from the first 1200 batch to the "stage two" part of the project.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I think if Prusa has their head on straight they have a licensing deal that allows them to source parts if Bondtech decides to leave the market. Heck, it might even be a partial stock trade where Prusa takes investment capital from China. Wouldn't be the first time a sole proprietorship wanted to suck cash from the company.
Not sure where and why China would enter the equation?
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
Looking forward on how the end result will be mechanical wise. I hope that they will adapt the INDX so it uses the nextruder hot ends instead
I'm excited about the INDX as an addition to the Core ONE, but I also really like how the Nextruder works and is servicable and all that. As much as I am interested in the INDX, I need to know what the consequences of replacing the toolhead will be. It's not like you can just swap back to the Nextruder when you want. Issues like tuning and getting rid of VFAs would now be different, and as a third-party product, how can we rely on Prusa for the same level of support?
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I hope that they will adapt the INDX so it uses the nextruder hot ends instead
Sorry, but that is not going to happen. Certainly not with the full hotends, which use conventional resistive heating in the Nextruder, while the whole idea of the INDX hinges upon inductive heating.
But even if you meant just the nozzles: So much engineering has gone into the reliable docking, heating, heat break, and temperature sensing of Bondtech's nozzles over the course of two years or so. It will not be possible to adapt this to the Nextruder nozzles -- not within just a few months, and probably not at all because the Nextruder parts were never designed to be used as dockable, inductively heated nozzles.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
The more I think about it, the more I think toolchangers are the future of 3d printing.
It’s not just the multicolour aspect, it’s the multi material and multiple nozzle aspects that interest me the most.
If the INDX is successful, and I can’t see a single reason why it won’t be, I’ll probably weigh up building a Voron as well.
INDX isnt just a tool changer..it’s an entire toolhead upgrade, even just looking at a single toolhead. If the claims from Bondtech come to fruition I can’t see I’ll really have much use for the Nextruder…the Bondtech extruder is better, the flow rate is better, the nozzle heats and cools many times quicker…and with Bondtech guys getting the nozzle to print at 360 its head and shoulders above the stock Prusa toolhead.
Obviously there will be some teething issues, thats a given.
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
Looking forward on how the end result will be mechanical wise. I hope that they will adapt the INDX so it uses the nextruder hot ends instead
Why? For what benefit ?
RE: Nextruder vs INDX
I can imagine reusing my Nextruder with the new 400C hot end on another Core One or some kind of Voron/PrusaWire setup. I'm looking forward to the new INDX add-on but it still won't let me print PPS or PPA-CF with a hot enough nozzle to get decent layer adhesion. Would love for someone (reputable) to come out with a 400C/120C/70C (nozzle, bed, chamber) printer that won't break the bank (Vision Miner V4) or burn down my house (Qidi Plus 4)