RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Thanks will have a look at that and go through the kit contents before making any purchases. It's disappointing if none of the Electronics or Motors from an MK4 end up in the CoreOne
What I would really like is an MK3s ->CoreOneINDX kit - but thought maybe something like an MK3s-MK3.5 (or whatever the kit is that adds the electronics but not the NexTruder), then an Mk4->CoreOneIndx might be practical.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
12 tools? 🙂 I think we have to see if 7 (or like, 2) is perfectly reliable first. I think I'd be happy with 4 tools on a machine the size of a CORE One, but I guess it depends if you want to make rainbow-color masterpieces or just be able to use 2-4 different physical materials in the same print.
One advantage of the Bambu Lab system is you can have so many spools all leading down to a single PTFE tube to the printer. I wonder if there will be any AMS-like device (even from a 3rd party) for autoloading filament - of course that design basically means one multi spool roll per INDX tool but that could still be useful for "printing directly from filament storage".
So shot in the dark time, how much do people think this is going to set us idiots back ? I reckon £500 ish
I think if you start at around £500 for the Bondtech basic £250+7 x 35 - maybe take off a bit for retail vs commercial, but then add on a bit for cooling, rack holder, PTFEs, filament spools, development and support - then I think I would expected at least £800 for an upgrade kit. Or if it's included with an Assembled or Kit Core One then you can take off a bit for not needing a Nexttruder - so maybe as low as a £600 premium on the existing CoreOne Prices.
The question for me now is how do a get from a MK3s to a CoreOne INDX as upgrade, rather than selling and buying.
I don't see an easy route. MK4->Core Upgrade probably the closest, then INDX, but I wouldn't need the nexttruder part of the CoreOne kit - maybe they will offer an MK4 to CoreOneINDX kit.
Also 7 tools is good - but not quite enough for me - so I think I would be looking for 12+ - I think you could fit in a 2nd row of tools offset 1/2 a tool below to Top 7 - that slides up and swaps places - like they do on the H2C -
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
One advantage of the Bambu Lab system is you can have so many spools all leading down to a single PTFE tube to the printer. I wonder if there will be any AMS-like device (even from a 3rd party) for autoloading filament - of course that design basically means one multi spool roll per INDX tool but that could still be useful for "printing directly from filament storage".
MMU3
Prusa Core One, MK4S w/ MMU3 (formerly MK4 / MMU3, MK3S+/MMU2), 2 Prusa MINI+, Octoprint. PETG, PVB, (some) PLA.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Imagine having multiple MMU3's for this purpose.... No thanks 🙂 Thinking of something more integrated, AMS style- the MMU3 (3rd party mods aside) still has the annoying manual filament loading, no built in dry box, takes up space with separate buffer...
One advantage of the Bambu Lab system is you can have so many spools all leading down to a single PTFE tube to the printer. I wonder if there will be any AMS-like device (even from a 3rd party) for autoloading filament - of course that design basically means one multi spool roll per INDX tool but that could still be useful for "printing directly from filament storage".
MMU3
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
INDX is what I've been waiting for - if true, it would be the most economical option for those of us on the Prusa platform already to do multi-material at speed.
I really strongly considered the XL 2- head to do multi-material and advanced materials with the same machine, and the reason that I didn't jump for it was 1) price point 2) incompatibility with existing MKX accessories 3) opaque enclosure (I know, I know, cameras, but I'm old fashioned - I wanna see the thing) 4) space requirements (it would require a full rebuild for my existing print chamber).
Ultimately, I went with the CoreONE kit for advanced material, and kept my MK4S / MMU3 for multi-material. That was a hard decision in itself, as just upgrading my MK4S / MMU3 to the CoreONE / MMU3 would have been cheaper; however, 1) I can use the additional print capacity, and 2) the MMU is a fiddly device which is performing really well where it's at. I didn't want to move it to a completely different platform and roll the dice.
CoreONE + INDX, if it is what I think it is, would be like if the CoreONE and XL-5 had a baby, which is exactly what I want.
Prusa Core One, MK4S w/ MMU3 (formerly MK4 / MMU3, MK3S+/MMU2), 2 Prusa MINI+, Octoprint. PETG, PVB, (some) PLA.
RE:
MMU3 Core one INDX would give 11 colours - with some efficient swaps and a few less frequently used colours less efficient.
1 x box turtle + 7x INDX would give 10 plus integrated spool holders for 4 of the colours
What I really want to do with my CoreOneINDX is a double row of INDX tools - basic idea (inspired by Bambulab H2C vortex video) (without any mechanics) shown in this short animation
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
The other way I’d like to see is a system that takes at least six different developments and then gives you the ability to feed them into one nozzle at the same time with some kind of intermixing in the nozzle. That way you could have on demand color. Think of the Tint base systems at hardware stores for matching colors.
the Baller version would take something like 16 different filaments and have them all online at the same time. The color match probably doesn’t use really more than five colorant for any single color match so that would work if you swap in and out the filaments. But if you had a system with about 16, you could print any color on demand.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Would be nice but I don't think that's how real life colour mixing works. Like eg with some liquid colours you can mix a white with a black and get a green instead of a grey. It gets more complicated the more colours a single colour is made up of. The best option would be to only use "pure" base colours and get all other colours from those, that'd be the most predictable.
That said I have no clue how filament colour mixing works (ie mixing coloured molten plastic), I'm only talking about my experience with colours for inside/outside walls and varnishes.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
The other way I’d like to see is a system that takes at least six different developments and then gives you the ability to feed them into one nozzle at the same time with some kind of intermixing in the nozzle. That way you could have on demand color. Think of the Tint base systems at hardware stores for matching colors.
You might be surprised how difficult it would be to actually get good mixing. Molten plastic has a high viscosity and it flows relatively slowly in the extruder -- hence moves in a laminar flow, not turbulent. You won't get mixed colors but multi-color strands bunched together.
Besides, as @outofcheese wrote: Even if you could "stir" and mix the molten filaments, the resulting colors would not be attractive in most cases. This type of color mixing is "subtractive": Every pigment in the mix absorbs some light wavelengths. Think of your experience mixing watercolors as a kid: No matter what you mix, the most likely outcome is some shade of brown...
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Luckily I know a guy, actually a bunch of guys and more than a few girls who know about colors and pigments and plastics. It definitely would take either a fairly long, static mixer, or probably some kind of single screw extruder/agitor to ensure full blending. Probably would end up being easier to just get a filament extruder and go with single pigment colored compounds or color concentrate and resin and extrude a new filament. Always wanted a more on demand type system. Not that we would change every layer, but per print or more likely for a run of whatever you’re trying to match. I think there was a filament company that was offering a bunch of RAL shades.
the advantage of doing it the filament level would be you could also make custom blends of different polymers. Although I’d have a lot of spare chambers on hand for the inevitable gunk up…
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Luckily I know a guy, actually a bunch of guys and more than a few girls who know about colors and pigments and plastics.
Did you ask them about this idea? 😉
It definitely would take either a fairly long, static mixer, or probably some kind of single screw extruder/agitor to ensure full blending. Probably would end up being easier to just get a filament extruder and go with single pigment colored compounds or color concentrate and resin and extrude a new filament. Always wanted a more on demand type system. Not that we would change every layer, but per print or more likely for a run of whatever you’re trying to match. I think there was a filament company that was offering a bunch of RAL shades.
the advantage of doing it the filament level would be you could also make custom blends of different polymers. Although I’d have a lot of spare chambers on hand for the inevitable gunk up…
Umm... resins for FDM?? Are there any which are meant to melt (after they have polymerized due to UV light or addition of catalyst)?
And blending different polymers once they are already in filament shape, in a way that gives you a blend with well-defined homogenous properties, seems even more challenging than blending different colors. You would really need to get them intermixed on the level of the individual polymer strands, wouldn't you?
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
the advantage of doing it the filament level would be you could also make custom blends of different polymers. Although I’d have a lot of spare chambers on hand for the inevitable gunk up…
I had temporary custody of a filament recycler/extruder and had a play with mixing different filament colors. As Jürgen so correctly pointed out, the end result was either brown, dark brown or black.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Luckily I know a guy, actually a bunch of guys and more than a few girls who know about colors and pigments and plastics.
Did you ask them about this idea? 😉
It definitely would take either a fairly long, static mixer, or probably some kind of single screw extruder/agitor to ensure full blending. Probably would end up being easier to just get a filament extruder and go with single pigment colored compounds or color concentrate and resin and extrude a new filament. Always wanted a more on demand type system. Not that we would change every layer, but per print or more likely for a run of whatever you’re trying to match. I think there was a filament company that was offering a bunch of RAL shades.
the advantage of doing it the filament level would be you could also make custom blends of different polymers. Although I’d have a lot of spare chambers on hand for the inevitable gunk up…
Umm... resins for FDM?? Are there any which are meant to melt (after they have polymerized due to UV light or addition of catalyst)?
And blending different polymers once they are already in filament shape, in a way that gives you a blend with well-defined homogenous properties, seems even more challenging than blending different colors. You would really need to get them intermixed on the level of the individual polymer strands, wouldn't you?
Resin doesn’t have to mean liquid, I was just mainly trying to differentiate from plastic compound. Resin, polymer, plastic all mean specific things, but get often get used interchangably. Masterbatch and color concentrate similarly, but with a bit of composition and a regional preference for terms. And yes, mixing or alloying different resins together is beyond my skill set, that’s why I was interested in playing with them.
the advantage of doing it the filament level would be you could also make custom blends of different polymers. Although I’d have a lot of spare chambers on hand for the inevitable gunk up…
I had temporary custody of a filament recycler/extruder and had a play with mixing different filament colors. As Jürgen so correctly pointed out, the end result was either brown, dark brown or black.
It depends on what you are mixing- and this is a major issue with recycling, and why people like Tomra make sorters for in MRFs. Plus, probably made worse because the filaments you were using I’m guessing were blends of different pigments, so two or three filaments, 9-12 pigments- yep a mess. Absorption wins out over scattering...
RE:
I don't think mixing while extruding is ever going to be practical, and even if you do manage to get well mixed plastic colours out then you are back to lots of purging when you want to change colours.
i therefore think either quite a few fixed colours in multiple large (02-0.6) nozzles (like CoreOneINDX) or a few primary colours coming from tiny (0.05 and below) nozzles 2d printer ink size or Eufymake mukti colour UV printer size are the answer to thousands of colours in a print,
The problem then introduced with thousands of colours is source material / colours for the actual models - i guess 3d scans or preprepared textures or gradients would help.
i guess being able to home manufacture offline from the printing small batches of a selection of colours would save having to keep stocks of multiple rolls of 10+ colours of different materials
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Guys this colour mixing guff is all way OT. It's nothing to do with INDX.
Start a thread about it.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
RE:
I love how our current options as core one owners are relatively limited. Yet Prusa tease a leap with a 7 toolhead INDX and still people want more 🤣 I can’t imagine anything will stop people who need extra from attaching a box turtle to each of those 7 tool heads, giving the potential for 28 filaments if needed. Seems like absolute overkill but we all have our workflows I guess
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
I hope there will be different options, like low toolhead to high toolhead count. I'd just get two to have a dedicated support material, I don't care so much about the multi color thing. Maybe I'll change my mind later but I certainly don't have the need for lots of different materials/colours right now (and probably for at least 2-3 years to come).
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
I love how our current options as core one owners are relatively limited. Yet Prusa tease a leap with a 7 toolhead INDX and still people want more 🤣 I can’t imagine anything will stop people who need extra from attaching a box turtle to each of those 7 tool heads, giving the potential for 28 filaments if needed. Seems like absolute overkill but we all have our workflows I guess
I want a large carousel of nozzles, rotating all around the Core One, with a handover position in the front left. Not less than 32 nozzles please! 😉
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
I think Box Turtle or MMU3 with INDX is a fairly valid combination - is that something anyone has ever attempted with the XL - as one of the reasons I never got one (apart from the large cost/additional extruder) was that 5 tools was nowhere near enough for me. The most colours I have gone up to is 11 - and that's on 0.2 and 0.4 nozzles in the same model