RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
For me the option that would differentiate in the most positive way from the INDX is having a preheat circuit in the docking area for its of the nozzles. I dont think it would add significant cost or complexity (HW wise) . But not having to wait for each nozzle picked to reach the wanted temperature from the ambient one will probably compare to the XL's changing speeds. Significantly better that what BL H2C advertise but probably make XL obsolete and short lived.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Doubtful, one of the major factors (and price) of the INDX system is that the toolhead are passive. If Prusa adopt the INDX system in its current form it's a big step for them.
RE:
Also note that the INDX system uses induction (IN) to heat the nozzles, Much quicker than Prusas approach, I think I read 7 seconds from cold. No preheat is necessary.
I'll be honest I really like this new approach from Prusa, all the big companies do it. They partner and obtain cutting edge technologies to stay at the forefront....otherwise they'll just be left behind.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Well 7 sec for let say 2000 changes are 14ooo seconds meaning 3.8 hours overhead in comparison with XL. I know is induction heading but im not sure that the addition of a small induction heater with a power line is that much of a stretch. Both HW and cost wise and the speed benefit will be a real plus. Not extra moving parts are needed. Just a small circuit.
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... im not sure that the addition of a small induction heater with a power line is that much of a stretch. Both HW and cost wise and the speed benefit will be a real plus. Not extra moving parts are needed. Just a small circuit.
But it would be seven induction heaters, one per docking position, right? Plus the wiring and control circuits to activate the right one in time. And it would probably cause headaches for the geometry of heaters and nozzle handling if you need to place a heater on either side of the handover (dock and extruder).
Nah, this seems to go totally against the grain of the INDX concept; I don't see that happening.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
We will see i guess. But personally i dont see the complexity in either geometry or functionality. There are not moving parts and the activation deactivation logic of what is heated is a matter of gcode. Similar to the more complex logic in toolchanging preheating etc. Personally as i said i would prefer this since the components price difference normally should not be so great but the speed gain will
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Well 7 sec for let say 2000 changes are 14ooo seconds meaning 3.8 hours overhead in comparison with XL. I know is induction heading but im not sure that the addition of a small induction heater with a power line is that much of a stretch. Both HW and cost wise and the speed benefit will be a real plus. Not extra moving parts are needed. Just a small circuit.
😂
I think you're better off sticking to the XL mate.
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Based on the fact that Bondtech are also teasing this, its an easy assumption that Prusa are licensing the INDX technology for the Core One. Prusa going back and re-engineering the INDX design in that way to add heaters per toolhead just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. If they want to invest more R+D and time, they would just go and design a new tool-changer. The XL will likely remain and be that option of individually heated toolheads. If i was to guess the INDX set up in the Core one is a direct challenge at the "AMS" type poop systems on the market. So even with that heat up time in the INDX it'll still beat those systems for time and also avoid all that waste. This system will allow multi-materials also, so if the cost can stay somewhat "competitive", this will be a standout option and differentiate it from all others on the market... for now. Things are changing rapidly in the market though, so if its another year before it's available and a frustrating launch (which is typical of Prusa), they may have missed another opportunity to take back some of the market.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Based on the fact that Bondtech are also teasing this, its an easy assumption that Prusa are licensing the INDX technology for the Core One. Prusa going back and re-engineering the INDX design in that way to add heaters per toolhead just doesn't make sense from a business perspective. If they want to invest more R+D and time, they would just go and design a new tool-changer. The XL will likely remain and be that option of individually heated toolheads. If i was to guess the INDX set up in the Core one is a direct challenge at the "AMS" type poop systems on the market. So even with that heat up time in the INDX it'll still beat those systems for time and also avoid all that waste. This system will allow multi-materials also, so if the cost can stay somewhat "competitive", this will be a standout option and differentiate it from all others on the market... for now
Yeah it's nonsensical when you think about it. If people want XL speeds then buy an XL. They're not going to kill the XL off by offering the same functionality for a lower price.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
personally i dont see the complexity in either geometry or functionality.
Is that because you know how to do it, or because you have no idea about the subject matter? 😛
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Of course that also brings to mind having a larger machine but without the XL's individual tools, but INDX instead. Would Prusa be going in the direction of converting the XL for a MK2 or what. There's arguably a big gap in their product line/pricing/features between a CORE One (with INDX) and an XL with more than 1 tool (which is just about the only practical reason to buy one). Thinking about a 10 tool INDX, those mentioned "in house linear motors", and 360^3 😉
Yeah it's nonsensical when you think about it. If people want XL speeds then buy an XL. They're not going to kill the XL off by offering the same functionality for a lower price.
RE:
it from all others on the market... for now
Yeah it's nonsensical when you think about it. If people want XL speeds then buy an XL. They're not going to kill the XL off by offering the same functionality for a lower price.
Well not exactly true. People who would prefer the XL speed probably will not buy it if it just for this. XL has a large price gap due to the complexity and complete extruder heads. A lot of people will take this in to account and it will be a matter of what is more important to them. Money or speed and i think the cost will prevail. And im not sure if in the end of the day if it actually profitable for prusa to sustain two different paths that achieve more or less the same result. XL sales will take a big hit speed or no speed. AMS solutions take a large portion of the market not because they are better but because they are cheaper. If you bring a solution thats sits in the middle between AMS/mmu and Multitool with a fraction of the cost this will take sales from both worlds. But in Prusas case mmu will be replaced and its a question of replacing the multitool too or keep supporting it with upgrades. Again it will be a matter of sales i guess. BL is "enhancing" their AMS with H2C and snap maker has only the toolhead solution. Let see what prusa does and at what cost.
personally i dont see the complexity in either geometry or functionality.
Is that because you know how to do it, or because you have no idea about the subject matter? 😛
Even if i have a small knowledge on the area of the matter, i think it doesn't actually matters since i'm fairly sure sure that not all people that are expressing opinions in various posts are electrical and electronic engineers 🙂 .
Prusa going back and re-engineering the INDX design in that way to add heaters per toolhead just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.
Nobody said for Prusa to invest in R&D. For example, in a smaller scale, when Prusa developed their new custom design nozzle for the XL , MK4 etc i'm almost sure that it didnt do it from scratch. Probably commissioned a company like E3d (which sell their nozzle btw) to alter a existing design with custom needs. Maybe i say maybe since obviously i dont know can do the same with this with bondtech. Or probably buy the rights to use it in the current form. Who knows.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
I have a five head XL and it has been a beast in printing. Ben mostly doing multicolor prints and it just bangs them out so far.
of course I have a core one and MMU3 being delivered next week. But the real reality is, I’m not going to see any of this INDX stuff until Christmas next year. Probably right when I finally debug my MMU3.
while I will take a new multimaterial system, what I really was hoping for was at least a 350° core one.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Prusa going back and re-engineering the INDX design in that way to add heaters per toolhead just doesn't make sense from a business perspective.
Nobody said for Prusa to invest in R&D. For example, in a smaller scale, when Prusa developed their new custom design nozzle for the XL , MK4 etc i'm almost sure that it didnt do it from scratch. Probably commissioned a company like E3d (which sell their nozzle btw) to alter a existing design with custom needs. Maybe i say maybe since obviously i dont know can do the same with this with bondtech. Or probably buy the rights to use it in the current form. Who knows.
Any change will require r+d. Those nextruder nozzles have 3 channels for filament flow, I believe this design was originally patented by 3DSolex. Bondtech licensed this and from my understanding developed the CHT nozzles for nextruder. E3D have since developed their own version. I may have the order of the companies a little off though. All of that said, regardless of the company that did the development, Prusa still had to pay for it. And within that is the cost of the original licensing and any development work done. All r+d, whether internal or external, increases time to market and overall costs. It doesn’t matter if there’s a foundation to the technology or if it's outsourced, if you want to change something, prototyping, iteration and development are all needed, and all increase cost.
So in the case of INDX, by licensing Prusa paying INDX for the r+d they have already put in. Of course they can adapt it but the more significant the change from the original design, even if the components are cheap, it’ll cost the end user much more to allow Prusa to recoup the costs of development. The current info from bond tech has the "thin passive tool to cost around 35 EUR/USD and for the smart tool head to cost around 250 EUR/USD". This is one of the appeals of the system as well as the space saving. So already with no design changes you would be looking at close to 500eur for 6 toolheads. That doesn't include if a new spool enclosure or routing is needed or other changes to the stock Core one case etc. If more extensive changes are made to the design then I think it'll price the Core one out.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
Well in the end of the day time will tell. To be completely honest i'm really excited not only for Prusa and INDX but for generally the fact that there is actual movement in multimaterial solutions. 2026 will be interesting. The main thing though that i personally gained with the XL is not going full speed ahead on first iterations of any solution, of any company. Wait for them to mature. And not hung up on past glorys and brand names. If Prusa goes down INDX and build a solid solution around it , with a more honest price tag, then it will be great for them and for us.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
"Tsk. Programmers 🤦
I’m all for them indexing from zero in the software if that’s what they’re used to, but in the real world the first tool head should be number one, and the last tool head should have the same number as the total."
MMU based 3d Printing has T0 on the MK3, MK4 and Core One meaning the first tool/filament. T1 the second and so on. Too much of 3D printing ignored the NC standards. T0 in NC means UNLOAD and leave empty. Would have simplified some coding if they had carried it over to 3D printing now that head changers are in use.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
They can give the toolheads Urdu names for all I care 😂 Love to know if there's going to be a working C1/INDX at Formnext 2025.
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
They can give the toolheads Urdu names for all I care 😂 Love to know if there's going to be a working C1/INDX at Formnext 2025.
Bondtech already stated they will launch INDX, so it could be possible the launch includes the barebones kits for Vorons as well as the Core One for user that like off the shelf. Live in hope
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
So shot in the dark time, how much do people think this is going to set us idiots back ? I reckon £500 ish
I think if you start at around £500 for the Bondtech basic £250+7 x 35 - maybe take off a bit for retail vs commercial, but then add on a bit for cooling, rack holder, PTFEs, filament spools, development and support - then I think I would expected at least £800 for an upgrade kit. Or if it's included with an Assembled or Kit Core One then you can take off a bit for not needing a Nexttruder - so maybe as low as a £600 premium on the existing CoreOne Prices.
The question for me now is how do a get from a MK3s to a CoreOne INDX as upgrade, rather than selling and buying.
I don't see an easy route. MK4->Core Upgrade probably the closest, then INDX, but I wouldn't need the nexttruder part of the CoreOne kit - maybe they will offer an MK4 to CoreOneINDX kit.
Also 7 tools is good - but not quite enough for me - so I think I would be looking for 12+ - I think you could fit in a 2nd row of tools offset 1/2 a tool below to Top 7 - that slides up and swaps places - like they do on the H2C -
RE: INDX is coming for CoreOne?
The question for me now is how do a get from a MK3s to a CoreOne INDX as upgrade, rather than selling and buying.
Have you seen this thread? Even with the current Core One, users who started with a MK3 and kept upgrading will find themselves with nearly all the leftover parts to build a complete MK3S. The only parts that are missing (i.e. the only parts which actually end up in the Core One) are the heat bed, 2x 8mm linear bearings, and 2x 8mm smooth rods.