RE:
With the proprietary identification tags in their filament ... , they could (in the extreme) lock out third-party materials entirely,
I'm sure you don't have a Bambu printer. Otherwise you knew at least this part is wrong.
So when you don't know something for sure but you are only guessing, don't make it look like a fact.How do I know you don't have a Bambu printer?
If you had one, you knew that only the AMS has an RFID reader. Externally connected spools or if you simply don't own an AMS your printer will believe what you told the filament is.
I wrote "they could (in the extreme)...", and also wrote that they have not implemented any hard measures yet. Clear enough?
And of course they could make it very inconvenient to use filament without their RFID tags, also when fed externally: Ask the user to confirm before every print what the loaded filament is. Or to tighten the belts further, require the input of an "admin password" every time, similar to what Windows asks if you start a program without digital signature. All only with the best of intentions, of course, to protect the user from errors and illicit materials...
Edit: Ah, I see you edited your post in the meantime. We don't seem too far apart in our assessments. So regarding the total lock-out of 3rd party filaments, let's assume Bambu will not go as far as forcing you to use the AMS only if you have one. They could certainly lock out 3rd party filaments from the AMS, but I don't think they will do that -- to much uproar. But I totally expect them to make it more inconvenient...
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
How do I know you most likely don't have a Bambu printer?
Oh, I forgot to mention: I had one, but sent it back when they announced the new firmware restrictions in January.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
With the proprietary identification tags in their filament ... , they could (in the extreme) lock out third-party materials entirely,
I'm sure you don't have a Bambu printer. Otherwise you knew at least this part is wrong.
So when you don't know something for sure but you are only guessing, don't make it look like a fact.How do I know you don't have a Bambu printer?
If you had one, you knew that only the AMS has an RFID reader. Externally connected spools or if you simply don't own an AMS your printer will believe what you told the filament is.I wrote "they could (in the extreme)...", and also wrote that they have not implemented any hard measures yet. Clear enough?
And of course they could make it very inconvenient to use filament without their RFID tags, also when fed externally: Ask the user to confirm before every print what the loaded filament is. Or to tighten the belts further, require the input of an "admin password" every time, similar to what Windows asks if you start a program without digital signature. All only with the best of intentions, of course, to protect the user from errors and illicit materials...
Edit: Ah, I see you edited your post in the meantime. We don't seem too far apart in our assessments. So regarding the total lock-out of 3rd party filaments, let's assume Bambu will not go as far as forcing you to use the AMS only if you have one. They could certainly lock out 3rd party filaments from the AMS, but I don't think they will do that -- to much uproar. But I totally expect them to make it more inconvenient...
That is a fair assessment of the use of RFID on spools by a non-ethical company. I am hoping a non-proprietary RFID will limit that in the future. I know it is a big hope.
--------------------
Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
But I totally expect them to make it more inconvenient...
Again, this is not specific to Bambu. There are various ways companies try to make your life misarable so you do what they want or to buy thier new products.
For example I bought the H2D next to my MK4S for various reasons, mainly being dual-extruder and bigger space. But that wouldn't have been enough to buy something non-Prusa.
This Github issue here ( https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues/4254), with probably 200 comments, from various people is the one to actually made my decision to buy something non-Prusa.
You got a big bunch of users, many of them are rather experienced (typical Prusa customer) and you tell them, what they are experiencing is a pure cosmetical issue, you offer solutions that are not even related to the issue and you ask customers to replace parts, very likely knowingly it won't fix it.
They could have even wrote in this issue that they understand the issue but they don't know how/when to fix it. That would have been honest at least. But just say to the customers that they are overreacting (not thier words, just the implication by bringing it down to a cosmetical issue) is simply a no-go.
This was actually the reason that I didn't wait for a new Prusa device to come to market simply because I lost trust in their abilities to understand their customers and the printing market.
And when I don't trust comanies (in one way or another) anyway, it makes my life easier because I then decide simply on specs and in this area (specs per money) Bambu is the clear winner.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
At this point I'm not too fussed about lock-in concerns. I don't actually believe that's what Bambu are intending - they are trying to streamline the printing process to make it as beginner friendly as possible, but at the same time this could alienate the more knowledgeable users who want to customise there equipment more for their setup. It's like catering for two different camps. It's a very, very extreme example to state that from sending a 3D print to my printer someone in China will hack into my banking! lol
While I do think Bambu should leave some aspects open ended - the choice of slicing software for instance, I do like some of their other approaches too. Filament being one of them. Being able to just throw a spool into an AMS and have it recognise the colour and type without doing anything further, is great! Just so nice and easy. Of course you can still use any filament from any other manufacturer - you just need to input the type and colour manually thats all.
But saying that, I do tend to use Prusament for my Core One, and Bambu filament for my H2D! lol Don't ask me why, but Ive never used any other manufacturers filament before! Never had the need (just PLA and PETG) and I've found these filaments to be very reliable. Even then, I'm leaning more towards Bambu filament these days. Not only does it print really well for me, it's also cheaper - less them half the cost of Prusament in some cases. You get heavier discounts when buying multiple spools, and the shipping is free when spending over £45. In comparison, Prusament is more expensive to start with, but the shipping costs as much as a whole spool of PLA!
Its the same with parts. I could buy the Core One+ upgrade parts for only £9.50 - saves the cost and material with printing myself - but £17.99 is the cheapest shipping option?!!! Almost double the cost of the item being purchased!
On the other hand, I can pick all hardware parts up from Bambu - not only are they cheap, shipping is very cheap too. Its just cheaper to run and maintain overall.....for me anyways. There was the initial concern where users felt they would be left with large paperweights should Bambu as a company fail, but we've come a long way since then. They've firmly established themselves as being one of the main leaders now. I can't see failure being an option any longer.......
I'm still also in the Prusa camp though. Despite some of the business practices being questionable (pre-ordering and comms etc) I like the open ended nature - the fact that once you've purchased the printer, its YOURS. Do as and what you want with it without being 'guided' down a specific path. What Prusa have done for the industry is huge. Maybe it comes down to personal use case, but at this point in time you can't go wrong with either.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
But I totally expect them to make it more inconvenient...
Again, this is not specific to Bambu. There are various ways companies try to make your life misarable so you do what they want or to buy thier new products.
Sure -- aiming for vendor lock-in (to drive recurring revenue) is not a Bambu invention. But in the context of the present discussion, i.e. Bambu vs. Prusa, I think it is fair to say that Prusa is much less inclined to do this.
Originally it was due to the open source ethos, I think -- it just did not occur to Prusa to try and lock people in. When they set up their own filament production (because, no doubt, they also like the revenue), their sales pitch was "it's better-controlled, giving you better print quality", not "it's more convenient to use with our printers". To some extent this may simply have been due to having less bells & whistles, like RFID sensors, which could be used to implement a convenience-over-openness scheme. But more recently I think Prusa has also rediscovered the "open", although not necessarily open source, approach as a sales argument.
I am by no means saying that Prusa is perfect. The printers have software and hardware issues and it often takes them long to address these; your link is just one of many examples. But regarding concerns over vendor lock-in, I trust Prusa more than Bambu.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
But regarding concerns over vendor lock-in, I trust Prusa more than Bambu.
Sure. I also wrote something similar a few days ago regarding trust into companies.
Prusa has a long history of not doing anything seriously stupid. So they earned trust over time. I can't say anything similar about Bambu.
Btw, forgot to mention: I own the MK4S with MMu3.
You earlier wrote (not your exact words) that Bambu could annoy people by asking for confirmations/passwords when using non-Bambu filament.
So even if they force you to enter three passwords each time the process of changing filament with the AMS 2 pro will still be 80 % shorter compared to MMU3. 😉
(I guess those like me who own both know exactly what I'm talking about)
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
At this point I'm not too fussed about lock-in concerns. I don't actually believe that's what Bambu are intending - they are trying to streamline the printing process to make it as beginner friendly as possible, but at the same time this could alienate the more knowledgeable users who want to customise there equipment more for their setup. It's like catering for two different camps. It's a very, very extreme example to state that from sending a 3D print to my printer someone in China will hack into my banking! lol
While I do think Bambu should leave some aspects open ended - the choice of slicing software for instance, I do like some of their other approaches too. Filament being one of them. Being able to just throw a spool into an AMS and have it recognise the colour and type without doing anything further, is great! Just so nice and easy. Of course you can still use any filament from any other manufacturer - you just need to input the type and colour manually thats all.
But saying that, I do tend to use Prusament for my Core One, and Bambu filament for my H2D! lol Don't ask me why, but Ive never used any other manufacturers filament before! Never had the need (just PLA and PETG) and I've found these filaments to be very reliable. Even then, I'm leaning more towards Bambu filament these days. Not only does it print really well for me, it's also cheaper - less them half the cost of Prusament in some cases. You get heavier discounts when buying multiple spools, and the shipping is free when spending over £45. In comparison, Prusament is more expensive to start with, but the shipping costs as much as a whole spool of PLA!
Its the same with parts. I could buy the Core One+ upgrade parts for only £9.50 - saves the cost and material with printing myself - but £17.99 is the cheapest shipping option?!!! Almost double the cost of the item being purchased!
On the other hand, I can pick all hardware parts up from Bambu - not only are they cheap, shipping is very cheap too. Its just cheaper to run and maintain overall.....for me anyways. There was the initial concern where users felt they would be left with large paperweights should Bambu as a company fail, but we've come a long way since then. They've firmly established themselves as being one of the main leaders now. I can't see failure being an option any longer.......
I'm still also in the Prusa camp though. Despite some of the business practices being questionable (pre-ordering and comms etc) I like the open ended nature - the fact that once you've purchased the printer, its YOURS. Do as and what you want with it without being 'guided' down a specific path. What Prusa have done for the industry is huge. Maybe it comes down to personal use case, but at this point in time you can't go wrong with either.
You make some good points, but I don't expect the Bambu masterplan to be rushed out, it'll be a gradual thing over years.
You're right about the filament, although Prusa filament is excellent quality, it was always prohibitively expensive when buying at the quantities I use (when you factor in shipping)
So imagine my shock the other night when I discovered I can now by Prusament direct from Prusa on Amazon, with free next day shipping. It always felt like Prusa were leaving money on the table. Most of their printers are also now available on there also.
But please don't be naive enough to think that Bambu have the user experience as their main driving force.
It's money, it's always about the money. Even more so when VC backing and shareholders are getting a say.
The real money in 3d printing doesn't come from the sales of machines, it comes from the consumables. Over the lifetime of a printer most users will spend a lot more on filament than the what they spent on the machine, and the profit margin will be much higher on the filament than on the printer itself.
They can dress it up how they like, like the nozzle DRM is apparently about 'thermal runaway risk'... they actually think people will swallow that 😂...It's no different than Apple pairing iPhone screens to motherboards...it's about killing third party parts, and it's anti-consumer at its heart, and it's all about the money.
I don't think Bambu even really care that much about 3d printing enthusiasts anymore....they've served their purpose in getting Bambu where they are today.
They no longer aim their printers at people who want to buy a 3d printer, they're now targeting the much larger section of people who could use a 3d printer.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
This! Below yes.
I’m enjoying my H2S. It's far superior while being significantly cheaper and more polished than any Prusa offering.
However, sooner or later Bambu is going to lock it down. That’s the corporate strategy they execute on.
It’s still okay to use Bambu for now. For many good reasons. But Prusa should use the time to hire a bunch of industrial designers and make a competitive in performance machine.
being expensive is okay, as long as the machines are good. Being expensive while offering less than the competition’s budget machines is uffda.
The time is ticking Bambu will lock it down. I will probably have 6k hours on the H2S
but please Prusa get your act together in the meantime
My main concern regarding Bambu Lab is not privacy and data security, but potential vendor lock-in:
With the proprietary identification tags in their filament and apparently their new Vortek nozzles, they could (in the extreme) lock out third-party materials entirely, or make it deliberately inconvenient to use them. By limiting direct printer interactions to their proprietary Bambu Studio, they could potentially add software functionality that is only available at a surcharge or a subscription, or push (or even limit) users to Bambu's own marketplace platform for models. And they can lock out or severely restrict 3rd party hardware upgrades, as they tried with the Panda touch display.
So far, push-back from customers has prevented Bambu from implementing really "hard" measures. But it seems clear to me that they have the appetite to take more and more control. Those recurring revenues from consumables and marketplace fees are just too sweet... They are called "the Apple of 3D printing" not just for their slick user experience, but also for their appetite to control all aspects of the ecosystem.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
but please Prusa get your act together in the meantime
All yes, but...
There is something I like so much better about my Prusa than my Bambu:
Prusa doesn't poop. My Bambu poops constantly. Even if you don't do filament change, it will still poop. I mean, they have so much the reputation of pooping I am sure they added some random poop-code in the firmware to comply with user's expectations. 😉
But to be serious:
This is something where Prusa really excels. They managed to create a process where you unload filament from the hotend/nozzle, and during unload form a pefect tip, reliable enough for automatic loading. Therefore hardly any old filement stays in the hotend.
Bambu on the other side didn't manage to do this. They just cut the filament above the hotend (with all machines, even with the A1 mini) leaving a lot filament in there that has to be pooped out.
It's just.... I think Prusa will need to learn to put all of that massive printing knowledge they gained over time in a cometetive package. And at the same time don't ignore existing customers (like they do with the 1st layer issues I mentioned earlier).
I would be really interested where Prusa's business focus lies.
RE:
Sorry but saying what that they "may" or they "possibly" do in the future is not an argument. Prusa was opensourced with easy access to schematics and models. And that was their moto. When i bought the mk3s i could download its 3d model and use it to build my own enclosure around it. Hey even my X-carve had a complete 3d model of their cnc. From the time i got my XL until now no 3d model is present. And in the end i bought their overpriced and not so decent enclosure. The SLS1 is good but again overpriced and actually if it wasn't labeled as "Prusa" i wouldn't believe it was made, scratch that , sold by them. Did the company became "closed" , or did it break a promise? No. Because they didnt promise anything and neither did Bambu. They were advertising what they considered their "pros" at that point in time. You never know what the future holds and how a company will respond to the market and challenges. Stating that a "what if" is actually a reason to "badmouth" a company is childish. As childish as saying that Prusa's drive is something else than their profits. Its a company not charity. Prusa now has a lineup with patented technology from bondtech and placed the XL in the background (no actual upgrades since its release and no the enclosure is not an upgrade). Is it bad? It is what it is. I like the INDX idea and i hope it works. Personally i dont have a bambu but my trust in the Prusa name is not what it was. I don't offer to be faithful to companies for ever and similarly i dont condemn others of what they MAY do. When the time comes to change my XL ill see what they offer and at that point in time where they stand. Recently i wanted a new SLA printer. Looking between SLS1 and others brands, Prusa was the worst choice. I got an Elegoo Saturn Ultra 4 and a the Mercury 3 curing station cheaper of what i could get just the cw1. I know because i have the SLS1 bundle also. And i get more for less on size and features. Do i care were they are made or what it can happen in the future since DJI became a shareholder? Thats silly. Did i compare old with new. Yes but prusa charges its sls like its the latest model.
In the end of the day if you dont like a product or a company its fair but for making an argument , again ... future "IFs" are a bit.... groundless, to place it mildly.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
Sorry but saying what that they "may" or they "possibly" do in the future is not an argument.
I beg to differ. Whether it's people, companies, or whatever other entities -- you can observe past behavior, try to derive the underlying intentions and the likely future behavior from that. Try it, it can be quite helpful in your interactions with the world. 😎
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
Sorry but saying what that they "may" or they "possibly" do in the future is not an argument. Prusa was opensourced with easy access to schematics and models. And that was their moto. When i bought the mk3s i could download its 3d model and use it to build my own enclosure around it. Hey even my X-carve had a complete 3d model of their cnc. From the time i got my XL until now no 3d model is present. And in the end i bought their overpriced and not so decent enclosure. The SLS1 is good but again overpriced and actually if it wasn't labeled as "Prusa" i wouldn't believe it was made, scratch that , sold by them. Did the company became "closed" , or did it break a promise? No. Because they didnt promise anything and neither did Bambu. They were advertising what they considered their "pros" at that point in time. You never know what the future holds and how a company will respond to the market and challenges. Stating that a "what if" is actually a reason to "badmouth" a company is childish. As childish as saying that Prusa's drive is something else than their profits. Its a company not charity. Prusa now has a lineup with patented technology from bondtech and placed the XL in the background (no actual upgrades since its release and no the enclosure is not an upgrade). Is it bad? It is what it is. I like the INDX idea and i hope it works. Personally i dont have a bambu but my trust in the Prusa name is not what it was. I don't offer to be faithful to companies for ever and similarly i dont condemn others of what they MAY do. When the time comes to change my XL ill see what they offer and at that point in time where they stand. Recently i wanted a new SLA printer. Looking between SLS1 and others brands, Prusa was the worst choice. I got an Elegoo Saturn Ultra 4 and a the Mercury 3 curing station cheaper of what i could get just the cw1. I know because i have the SLS1 bundle also. And i get more for less on size and features. Do i care were they are made or what it can happen in the future since DJI became a shareholder? Thats silly. Did i compare old with new. Yes but prusa charges its sls like its the latest model.
In the end of the day if you dont like a product or a company its fair but for making an argument , again ... future "IFs" are a bit.... groundless, to place it mildly.
Childish ? 😂
Many of us are old enough to recognise these patterns emerging.
This aint our first rodeo.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
Is still not an argument as afar as my opinion goes since it is not based on solid evidence. Yes you can predict up to some degree of a company goes bankrupt but certainly not if they are going to use you data for hacking, or close their ecosystem or stop supporting let say 3rd party filaments. Company policies change and thats the actual fact. Either for better or for worse. If you have inside info please let us know
Sorry but saying what that they "may" or they "possibly" do in the future is not an argument.
I beg to differ. Whether it's people, companies, or whatever other entities -- you can observe past behavior, try to derive the underlying intentions and the likely future behavior from that. Try it, it can be quite helpful in your interactions with the world. 😎
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
Is still not an argument as afar as my opinion goes since it is not based on solid evidence. Yes you can predict up to some degree of a company goes bankrupt but certainly not if they are going to use you data for hacking, or close their ecosystem or stop supporting let say 3rd party filaments. Company policies change and thats the actual fact. Either for better or for worse. If you have inside info please let us know
But you do understand what the word "concerns" means, right? Nobody said they have absolute proof of anything. This whole discussion is about more or less likely outcomes. But ignoring the evidence from past behavior in your decision-making for the future is a bit naive.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
I dont know how many bulls you rode in how many rodeos but sorry im not young either and until know i never argued or considered arguments being what a company MAY do in the future. Maybe things will go the way you and others predict. Maybe not. But surely you personal experiences and rodeo rides are not arguments that hold any wait to foretelling what a company may do or dont. Dont misunderstand my opinions are even worse. Its just that i dont make arguments based on what i "feel" they may do in the future. Maybe i had a more "blessed" consumer luck than you.
Sorry but saying what that they "may" or they "possibly" do in the future is not an argument. Prusa was opensourced with easy access to schematics and models. And that was their moto. When i bought the mk3s i could download its 3d model and use it to build my own enclosure around it. Hey even my X-carve had a complete 3d model of their cnc. From the time i got my XL until now no 3d model is present. And in the end i bought their overpriced and not so decent enclosure. The SLS1 is good but again overpriced and actually if it wasn't labeled as "Prusa" i wouldn't believe it was made, scratch that , sold by them. Did the company became "closed" , or did it break a promise? No. Because they didnt promise anything and neither did Bambu. They were advertising what they considered their "pros" at that point in time. You never know what the future holds and how a company will respond to the market and challenges. Stating that a "what if" is actually a reason to "badmouth" a company is childish. As childish as saying that Prusa's drive is something else than their profits. Its a company not charity. Prusa now has a lineup with patented technology from bondtech and placed the XL in the background (no actual upgrades since its release and no the enclosure is not an upgrade). Is it bad? It is what it is. I like the INDX idea and i hope it works. Personally i dont have a bambu but my trust in the Prusa name is not what it was. I don't offer to be faithful to companies for ever and similarly i dont condemn others of what they MAY do. When the time comes to change my XL ill see what they offer and at that point in time where they stand. Recently i wanted a new SLA printer. Looking between SLS1 and others brands, Prusa was the worst choice. I got an Elegoo Saturn Ultra 4 and a the Mercury 3 curing station cheaper of what i could get just the cw1. I know because i have the SLS1 bundle also. And i get more for less on size and features. Do i care were they are made or what it can happen in the future since DJI became a shareholder? Thats silly. Did i compare old with new. Yes but prusa charges its sls like its the latest model.
In the end of the day if you dont like a product or a company its fair but for making an argument , again ... future "IFs" are a bit.... groundless, to place it mildly.
Childish ? 😂
Many of us are old enough to recognise these patterns emerging.
This aint our first rodeo.
RE:
I know what a concern is, But i read comments in this post that go beyond voicing a "concern" , which to be honest its substance (close ecosystem) lingers as a thought to me to, and base a whole argument of why you should not go to Bambu. It became an argument of why we should avoid them. There are posts arguing from hacking, IP stealing, government espionage to not being able to print for various reasons with a machine you already bought. There is always a threshold were the concern starts to sound more as a biased and unfounded strong opinion. Look whoever have fears and ... concerns about what the company may or may not do he or she should listen to them since their own opinion it what really matters for them. What others say it may be taken filtered and absorbed in whatever amount each one wants. But this "concerns" don't make a Prusa printer better that a Bambu , or any other brand TODAY. And vice versa dont make any other brand better that Prusa. 3 years ago my concern was that Prusa with their choices were loosing customers. But today with the Core L and INDX it looks that they are not just back in the game but they may have really upped their game.
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce - Karl Marx
RE: Asked about opinion for bambu vs Prusa Core
Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future. (Niels Bohr)
Trying to predict the future is like trying to drive down a country road at night with no lights while looking out the back window. (Peter Drucker)