Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)
 
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George C.
(@george-c)
Active Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Can someone please point me to the latest firmware repo please?  I know Guy has been been occupied with bigger things.

I'm still on 3.8.ish

If you are looking for 0.9 degree X/Y support on a 3.9 branch, this is your best bet right now from what I can tell: https://github.com/vertigo235/Prusa-Firmware/pull/15

Posted : 12/10/2020 9:02 pm
Carter and Albe liked
Bikebandit
(@bikebandit)
Active Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Hi Everyone,

Looking this forum posting inspired me to go mad. Like MAD MAX ROAD WARRIOR MAD, Mad like with Moons MS17HA2P4150 on X and E, and MS17HA6P4150 on Y. I know that max current is 1.5A and Einsty can deliver 1.4 RMS, i'll take the bit on the loss of .1 Amps in performance. Thermal issues, lots and lots of current = lots and lots of heat. Over the driver vias on the back I have large heat sinks and I am going to be running a fan too until I figure out liquid / thermal electric cooling the board with controller. Also, I probably going to trying to put external copper heat blocks on the outside of motors with coolant flowing through the copper to chill the motors.

Looking through the github for the EinstyRambo, the sense resistors are .22 ohm , I noticed in Guy's AMAZING CODE, that he has the base value to .2 in tmc2130.cpp then in cur calc the divider value picks up the hundredths precision. Three questions; in NON stealth mode (dont care about noise) if in configuration_prusa the scaler value is set to 63, then the drivers would be supplying close to 1.4 amp RMS - correct? Second question, for crazy idiots like me, Guy dropped the hundredth precision on the initial variability for the sense to "slightly" protect the board - is this assumption correct? Third off the rail question, how does the regulation, PSSR, and DC noise from the power supply affect the TMC and their ability to build an analog wave with low noise? I know there is a bunch of by pass caps through out the board, but I am building a DC to DC power supply for a DAC, and the DC ripple noise requirements are crazy. Given that the TMC are building not the same but similar wave functions, I thought there might be a correlation. 

Also, I am changing the PWM pins for the bed heater and nozzle to external PWM controlled MOSFET for reduce massive current flows through the board. I will update if I get successful completed. 

Latest, thank you to Guy for developing the code. Thank you to everyone that has posted on this thread - absolutely amazing. Looking forward to heard back from everyone.

 

Posted : 20/10/2020 5:52 am
Dan Rogers
(@dan-rogers)
Noble Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

@bunny-science

This is good stuff - Hoping that drop-in = change out, plug in to same place as original.  Couple of questions - which stepper motors to upgrade?  The MS17HD2P4100 shows up as a Prusa Extruder stepper (amazon) .  So more of a how many of these to buy and which ones to target - plus is there any slicer settings I need to make to adjust for these "drop in" replacements?

Posted : 01/12/2020 6:23 pm
samtny
(@samtny)
New Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

For what it is worth I purchased some Moon's 0.9 steppers off Amazon after reading this thread and have observed... no change at all in "VFA's" after installing the motors. Certainly not results like in OP's photos, but in fact no change at all under a magnifier / various lighting, etc. Evenly spaced vertical lines still appear e.g. across all faces of the XYZ cube, etc., identical in comparison to the 1.8 (stock) steppers I replaced with these.

I am running an Ender 3, these are the steppers I swapped in for the stock (1.8 degree) steppers:

These steppers were also noisy enough I ultimately had to put the stock ones back on (as the printer runs near my working desk here at home). Tried various / stealthchop / microsteps / adjusting the amperage (easy to change using TMC2209's + Klipper), etc., but they just seem to have a baseline level of ... whiny noise I couldn't get rid of. Printer sounded like it did with the stock Creality control board in it, despite running an SKR Mini E3 V2.0 (on which the stock motors are dead silent).

These are *not* the exact same model steppers as mentioned earlier in this thread by OP: I specifically sought out "1.5 Amp" steppers as I believed the Ender 3 required this more-or-less as the Creality motors are ... widely reported to be 1.5 Amp. I think now this is probably an error on my part, yadda yadda, but wonder if it makes any difference in terms of noise level?

Both steppers are also quite a bit larger / heavier than the stock Ender 3 steppers- the Y-Axis rather comically so, as I had to modify the bed plate to accommodate it. The X-Axis too a little wrangling so it wouldn't bump the endstop but no big deal - it does drop my X gantry a right bit quicker than stock though ;).

What I liked about the arrangement is the motors ran much cooler than stock while providing more-or-less the same overall performance - no layer shifts, etc. I had them set to 0.725 amps in Klipper / TMC2209 UART config, FWIW. This is the same amperage rating I was running with the stock motors (I don't believe the SKR board / electronics will push much more juice than this, could be wrong I guess) - the stock motors used to run pretty hot this way.

In case it is not obvious, I am somewhat new to the hobby and not opposed to trying out random parts to swap in / out of my printer.

I may even grab a couple of the original motors mentioned by OP - MS17HA2P4100 - and see how these fare in my rig.

Just my 2 cents in case it may be useful to someone stumbling upon this old(er) thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted : 11/03/2021 9:24 pm
g monkey
(@g-monkey)
Trusted Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

I have put a set of the Trinamic QSH4218-51-10-049 on my X and Y axis, along with some toothed idlers.  They are drop in replacements so no firmware changes are required.  The print quality may have improved, but they are certainly very quiet - completely silent in stealth mode. 

Posted : 11/05/2021 1:29 pm
Carter liked
Veggiehead
(@veggiehead)
New Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Just wanted to know if anyone else has had really bad luck ordering the moons or whether or not the moons motors are supposed to be like this. If I remember correctly, Guy said that the motor should be smooth when spinning the shaft by hand. I just order 3 motors from moon's directly and all 3 are more notchy than 1.8 and seem to be tough to turn. I contacted moons and showed them videos of how it caused extra vibration but all they said was that everything was in spec and they don't know how my 3D printer was put together. I had MS17HA2P4100 motors that I ordered 2 years ago that feel completely different than the ones I ordered now. Is anyone else who ordered the MS17HA2P4100 recently getting really unsmooth motors? If you aren't where are you ordering from? Amazon?

Posted : 17/09/2021 3:34 am
Bunny Science
(@bunny-science)
Noble Member
Topic starter answered:
Notchy motors

Ugh! That is an unfortunate supply development. I haven't ordered any myself in quite some time. 

COVID supply chain issues probably have not helped in the QC department.

Posted : 05/10/2021 9:37 am
Carter
(@carter)
Trusted Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Is there a 3-10 build for the moons .9 degree stepper on X and Y?

Posted : 07/11/2021 3:07 am
tarbax
(@tarbax)
New Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

i am upgrading to the 0,9 stepperonline motors.
i have evrything home already i just trying to figure out what i need to change in my configuration.
i am running klipper and ths is my current settings for the stock 1,8 stepper x & y :

[stepper_x]
step_pin: PC0
dir_pin: !PL0
enable_pin: !PA7
microsteps: 16
rotation_distance: 32
#endstop_pin: ^PB6
endstop_pin: tmc2130_stepper_x:virtual_endstop
position_endstop: 0
position_max: 250
homing_speed: 50
homing_retract_dist: 0

[tmc2130 stepper_x]
cs_pin: PG0
interpolate: True
run_current: .300
hold_current: .300
#homing_current: .180
sense_resistor: 0.220
diag1_pin: !PK2
driver_IHOLDDELAY: 8
driver_TPOWERDOWN: 0
driver_TBL: 2
driver_TOFF: 3
driver_HEND: 1
driver_HSTRT: 5
driver_PWM_FREQ: 2
driver_PWM_GRAD: 2
driver_PWM_AMPL: 230
driver_PWM_AUTOSCALE: True
driver_SGT: 3
Posted : 16/11/2021 9:19 pm
LDoubleE
(@ldoublee)
Eminent Member
RE:

Very interesting thread. What are the preferred steppers in 2021?

Looks like the 0.9 need custom firmware and the 1.8 need custom wiring. Trying to decide which would be best....

Posted : 21/11/2021 3:03 pm
Helmuth
(@helmuth)
Eminent Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

I somehow stumbled across this (Youtube suggestion algorithms). Looks like it was put up a month ago, apologies if it's already been posted. Looks like a motor designed to reducing ringing. I have no opinion on this- I don't pay attention the cosmetics of my prints and am not even aware if I have the issue 🙂

https://prorifi3d.com/collections/upgrade-kit/products/kit

Posted : 04/01/2022 6:15 am
xnaron
(@xnaron)
Active Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Are the moons MS17HA2P4100  still the best motor to use to eliminate VFA?

Posted : 16/01/2022 12:51 am
Prorifi3D
(@prorifi3d)
New Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

We have a benchmark for you to refer

Posted : 16/01/2022 4:58 am
3dprusa
(@3dprusa)
New Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Can someone who tested them please verify that Prorifi3D stepper motors actually help with VFA? I would love to buy them if they truly work, but I haven’t seen anyone from the community prove that they help.

Posted : 21/01/2022 12:44 am
m750
 m750
(@m750)
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

I used trianamic own drivers that are specifically tuned for these drivers and they work perfectly (in principle the stall guard value should be changed as it sometimes misses lost steps but it is so rare i have not bothered to do it and just run the official FW) hope this helps 😉 

Posted by: @m750

Hello, I thought that i will share my results of swapping Y motor to Trinamic motor QSH4218-51-10-049. This is the only change i made to a completely stock MK3S, so there are still some ghosting and other effects at play. But i feel the result is really good and no firmware shenanigans needed :). I think a geared extruder will be the next step ;).

VID_20190705_211529

Edit: The media player for video did not work

 

Posted : 21/01/2022 6:02 am
erickson85
(@erickson85)
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Wow, late to the thread. I can’t believe this has going for this long. I’ve had 2x minis for a while and just recently got my MK3S+ and I was going crazy with those vertical waves on my prints. 

I find myself going to the mini all the time now.

 

MK3S+ (left) vs MINI+ (right)

 

Posted : 30/01/2022 11:13 am
Illmilliner
(@illmilliner)
Eminent Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Wait, how on Earth?! The Mini uses the same motor, right? What causes of the difference? Please let me know so I can improve my MK3S+

Posted : 04/02/2022 11:15 pm
erickson85
(@erickson85)
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

 

Posted by: @illmilliner

Wait, how on Earth?! The Mini uses the same motor, right? What causes of the difference? Please let me know so I can improve my MK3S+

Hello Illmilliner,

It was explained to me from user @bob as follow:

The difference in the prints is due to the reduced mass of the print head on the Mini.  Your I3 has a much larger print head with an extruder servo motor mounted directly to it, where your Mini has the extruder mounted to the Z -Axis carriage.  Sir Isaac Newton is in charge here, the inertia in your I3 print head will require more force to get it in motion and an equal amount of force to reduce or cease that motion, as a result you have uneven acceleration that is showing up as artifacts in your prints.  Since the Mini print head is so much lighter it's moment of interia is much lower, it can accelerate faster, and decelerate faster reducing artifacts.

There are pros and cons between direct drive like the I3 and Bowden Tube setups like the Mini.  You'll most likely find that the I3 is less finicky in the types of filaments it can use compared to the Mini. 

Better prints is a subjective thing, where there is overlap between the two printers the Mini may have an advantage, but the I3 has a larger print volume, more reliable Z-Axis control over the X-Axis and can print with a larger variety of filaments.

My I3 is a work horse that's by far the most reliable printer in my farm.  I do like my Mini, but sometimes it gives me headaches.

The only thing that improves print quality drastically is speed. results I'm getting at 20mm/s are acceptable and @15mm/s is almost similar to the ones I get from the MINI out of standard profiles (30mm/s). People recommend hard feet but for me Squash Balls work better (6 of them).

Posted : 05/02/2022 12:40 am
Chicago Keri
(@chicago-keri)
Estimable Member
RE:

It's not just the stepper motors but the entire motion system.  

On the i3, the larger build plate, its very sturdy Y carriage, magnets, etc. adds up to considerable mass to be quickly shuttled back and forth along the Y axis. At the same time, the heavier direct drive extruder along with the Pinda and filament sensor all add up the grams that are shuttled quickly right and left along the X axis.  The Z axis carries considerable weight but does have two screw drive steppers to power it, That weight, however, is concentrated on the Left side with the X stepper motor. Amazingly, it all works out fairly well and although there can be some artifacts, they are relatively minor.

One significant deviation from standard that I have done was to modify the X and the Y axis' idlers.  The standard Prusa uses a smooth idler that is a fair bit larger in diameter than the 16t drive sprocket on the stepper motor, roughly equivalent to a 20t sprocket.  Also, the standard idler has a 3mm center hole riding on an unsized 3mm threaded bolt with a fair bit of play.  This causes the idler to rock a bit when reversing direction. Also, as the teeth pass over the smooth idler, they distort slightly, adding to the interesting motion dynamics.   

What I have done with the idlers is to replace them with 20t toothed idlers with a 5mm bore.  The idlers run on 5mm steel tubing, which is a tight fit in the bore. The steel tubing is fit into tight 4.9mm holes in modified X and Y idler holders, and is secured by a 3mm bolt through the center. It's a bit close to the Right side  Z axis leads crew but clears ok.   This almost completely eliminates the idler wobble while maintaining the approximate diameter / geometry of the original pulley and, as the belt teeth are now engaging with a toothed idler,  a more stable behavior and longer life  can be expected of the belt.  The pulleys now seem to have an indefinite lifespan, as they now have considerable time on them with no perceptible play or noise.  Plus, as an unexpected bonus, the printer seems slightly quieter.

Other things I might try would be the better X and Y steppers suggested elsewhere along with trying to reduce some mass here and there.  I'm not interested in firmware mods, so 1.8º motors are for me.

 

 

¡no entiendo Español!
Nein! Nicht Versteh!
Я немного говорю по-русски но не очень хорошо, и...
I'm not very good at English either! Maybe someday I'll find a language I'm good at?

Posted : 05/02/2022 1:19 am
Chicago Keri
(@chicago-keri)
Estimable Member
RE: Stepper Motor Upgrades to Eliminate VFA's (Vertical Fine Artifacts)

Many thanks to Bunny and all contributors so far on this thread.

Yay!  The box from Moons arrived!  3 x 1.8º stepper motors, MS17HD2P4100.  By the way, no wires are included as they are sold separately on the site. I didn't order them because I have some left over from a previous printer.

So on with the X and Y motors, with the extruder to come later when I next overhaul the extruder.  One little thing, the mounting holes are a tiny bit less deep (about .8mm) so I needed shorter bolts.  I already had a reversed Y-axis pulley so it all just went on.

These do seem like a nice match for the Mk3s.  Belt check works as it should and the printer works just as it did except even a bit quieter during normal printing. The full-speed X-Y run from Mesh Position 9 to Home at the start of a print sounds about the same, but that's probably not microstepping much.  The short movements and the slower movements during printing are what seem quieter.  The usual Mk3s bed resonance noise seems unchanged but I had already reduced that with SuperLube.

The first Benchy came out good, but the previous one was already very good to start with.  Maybe less ringing on the wheelhouse walls. 

My rationale for this upgrade aside from experimentation was to get a cooler running extruder stepper.  My extruder does not get especially hot, just warm, but that does appear to be a tendency on the Forum and I do make 12 hour prints sometimes.  Prusa has been using the same LDO motors since the Mk2s, on which they seemed perfectly happy with the MiniRambo and its 1/16 micro-stepping.  I'm not so sure they're quite as happy with the EinsyRambo and its 1/256 micro-stepping, even though I've had no real issues with them.  

Will post pics of some difficult larger prints that tend to "ring" after I get the extruder stepper in....

¡no entiendo Español!
Nein! Nicht Versteh!
Я немного говорю по-русски но не очень хорошо, и...
I'm not very good at English either! Maybe someday I'll find a language I'm good at?

Posted : 23/02/2022 5:26 am
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