Bait and switch  

Re: Bait and switch

Simply having a stickied thread with known issues, dates/order number ranges of when it was a problem and fixes where applicable would be very useful indeed.

It's a nice idea but not applicable. Everyone have a different grade of level what is important.
1. For example all the source code and 3D object changes you can find on github. Activate the notification and you will be notified. If you put this change log in one stick thread, most of the people would not read it, because it's too much information.
2. For more less detailed grade, just to be informed is Prusa's blog best. If there are major issues which need to be public, he mentioned it there
3. Forum discussed issues are usually not a production issues. They are user based improvements. Nothing PR need to announce and mark as an issue. If they are, you will read this in the forum/reddit or see it on youtube first. Because PR need time to verify and find a solution first.
4. If your parts need to be replaced because of faulty batch, you will be notified. PR have all the serial numbers.
5. If you are interested in social live, go for Twitter/Facebook/... and follow PR.

Just trying to say there is no way you can squish all the current public channels of PR to one thread. Even the definition of "known issue" is usually questionable. For some people is a loosen belt on their assembled delivered MK3 a huge QA issue which need to be publicly addressed and others just call the PR support and let the broken delivered/assembled part replace. They are happy that this replacement/help is working so well.

Re: Bait and switch

Any follow-up from OP? 6 pages of people going back and forth and haven't heard from OP since the initial post.

Re: Bait and switch

Simply having a stickied thread with known issues, dates/order number ranges of when it was a problem and fixes where applicable would be very useful indeed.

It's a nice idea but not applicable. Everyone have a different grade of level what is important.

I completely disagree with almost everything you say.

This is the Official Support Forum - whoever would "own" the thread would decide what's important enough to be in it.

1. For example all the source code and 3D object changes you can find on github. Activate the notification and you will be notified. If you put this change log in one stick thread, most of the people would not read it, because it's too much information.

The FAQ thread can just say "major revision to many printed parts, check this thread/link for details" and link out to another one. It's not hard.

2. For more less detailed grade, just to be informed is Prusa's blog best. If there are major issues which need to be public, he mentioned it there

This is exactly what I'm talking about - I'm somehow expected to be a fan and follower of Joe on multiple channels or, oh well, I deserve to not have a good experience? That's a bad attitude for a company trying to move more mainstream and user-friendly. I want printing to be a hobby, not the printer and certainly not checking half a dozen channels to see what Joe's said where.

3. Forum discussed issues are usually not a production issues. They are user based improvements. Nothing PR need to announce and mark as an issue. If they are, you will read this in the forum/reddit or see it on youtube first. Because PR need time to verify and find a solution first.

This is the Official Support Forum. Until Prusa tell me otherwise, this is exactly where the information should be.

4. If your parts need to be replaced because of faulty batch, you will be notified. PR have all the serial numbers.

They certainly didn't contact me about the soft rods, have they done this another time?

5. If you are interested in social live, go for Twitter/Facebook/... and follow PR.

I'm not, at all. That's why I find a smattering of important support information on these channels frustrating.

Just trying to say there is no way you can squish all the current public channels of PR to one thread. Even the definition of "known issue" is usually questionable. For some people is a loosen belt on their assembled delivered MK3 a huge QA issue which need to be publicly addressed and others just call the PR support and let the broken delivered/assembled part replace. They are happy that this replacement/help is working so well.

I disagree entirely, if there are too many actual issues (i.e. not one-offs) for them to be managed in a forum (the Official Support Forum, remember - check that image up there in the top left) then we have bigger problems than I imagined. 😯

Support are great, although it's taking them over a week to get a pinda to me (that will make it 3 weeks out of 7 that my printer has been totally out of action due to component failures).

Re: Bait and switch

@Stuart:
And that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's perfectly fine to disagree with my statements. We both have absolutely different expectations what PR need to improve at first place. For me the current channels work perfectly fine. We are getting improvements for the Printer and PR do respond to community raised issues. I'm getting unfiltered information directly from the source by activating notifications for me most important stuff.

What you call "many issues", I'm calling it improvements and they are happening on daily base. You can follow it, but you don't have to. Just use a printer you have until it breaks, then contact support and they will help you.

Just an example from my printer. You can see couple discussions and improvements are going on the belt rubbing X/Y belts right now. I have an MK2 and have this rubbing since day one. It doesn't bother me because I have already over 150 days print time on my printer. The belts look still perfectly fine and are performing well. No need for replacement yet. Yes, I can see the slight wearing out and sometimes I can hear the squishing but it still perform after so many hours.

It's great that somebody from the community took action on it and improving it even more. So I will have a better printer next time after big maintenance. And it also give PR time/resources to concentrate on further development. I wouldn't call it an issue and I don't need a critical notification about that because my printer is still working fine and produce a really nice results.

Re: Bait and switch

Mild update: my replacement pinda was waiting for me at home - result. It is grey tipped and cabled - support said that this is due to a change in supplier so here's hoping it lasts a bit longer than the first one 🙂

Re: Bait and switch

Good luck!
Joan

Re: Bait and switch

Mild update: my replacement pinda was waiting for me at home - result. It is grey tipped and cabled - support said that this is due to a change in supplier so here's hoping it lasts a bit longer than the first one 🙂

I received a gray pinda with my order and was concerned. It's been perfectly fine for the 150 hours I have on the printer so far.

Re: Bait and switch

Where does it say, up front, that you wont get the bed they are advertising the product with? People shouldn't need to go reading forums to find out if the advert is correct...

This is the question. I thought maybe I missed something from the Prusa store listing about the plate substitution, but it's not there.

Some people are always going to wait days and weeks before making a purchase, pouring over reviews, videos and forums posts. Others are going to trust what prusa3d.com tells them: "What we are proud of"... leads with the removable heatbed, spring steel, etc. It leads the full feature list. It's the highlight of many sales videos. It literally pops out of the primary product photograph.

I have not placed an order. Maybe after I do I'd get something stating the substitutions that will be made. I hope that's the case. Otherwise, if it was my product for sale, I'd feel very uneasy about how it's marketed.

Or, maybe, the new normal is trust no manufacturer or retailer. Let a few guinea pigs take the plunge, learn what you'll actually get in the box, then proceed.

Re: Bait and switch

The whole Ad-discussion is actually obsolete. If you buy now, you should get the sheet like advertised. This is what my order page is showing:

"Please note we're currently shipping all orders with smooth PEI "sticker" spring steel sheet until the end of February 2018 (the same excellent surface as MK2 is using, just double-sided and on removable magnetic bed). If you want to receive your printer with textured powder-coated spring steel sheet, please contact us and we'll hold your order until March 2018 when they're expected to be available. Sheets will be available to order separately for $24.99 (glossy and textured powder coated) or $29.99 (smooth PEI "sticker") during March 2018 and you will get $10 discount for textured powder coated steel sheet to everyone who receives the printer with smooth PEI “sticker” spring steel sheet before and FREE shipping with it. More information in the article.

I really don't understand some people. Early buyer profit from the shipping situation. They have all the options:
1. Get the printer early with more expensive sheet.
2. Buy textured sheet for $14,99 (no shipping costs)
3. Delay the order until textures sheet is available
4. Cancel the order

The printer is advertised with textured sheet and that's why you can get all this advantages. Otherwise PR could just drop all this options and advertised with smooth sheet. I like it, how he managed it.

Re: Bait and switch

I really don't understand some people. Early buyer profit from the shipping situation. They have all the options:
1. Get the printer early with more expensive sheet.
2. Buy textured sheet for $14,99 (no shipping costs)
3. Delay the order until textures sheet is available
4. Cancel the order

The printer is advertised with textured sheet and that's why you can get all this advantages. Otherwise PR could just drop all this options and advertised with smooth sheet. I like it, how he managed it.

Yeah, I'm totally glad I'm getting this deal. Basically I get a 2nd flex-sheet, for 15$, rather than 30+$.

I was really bummed out when they said "You will get textured sheet at start of Feb", and I was then scheduled for Feb 2. Was like "nooooo!! I want the cheap-sheet discount!!!!" ... Now, if they would just ship a printer... ... ...

Re: Bait and switch

The whole Ad-discussion is actually obsolete. If you buy now, you should get the sheet like advertised. This is what my order page is showing:

"Please note we're currently shipping all orders with smooth PEI "sticker" spring steel sheet until the end of February 2018 (the same excellent surface as MK2 is using, just double-sided and on removable magnetic bed). If you want to receive your printer with textured powder-coated spring steel sheet, please contact us and we'll hold your order until March 2018 when they're expected to be available. Sheets will be available to order separately for $24.99 (glossy and textured powder coated) or $29.99 (smooth PEI "sticker") during March 2018 and you will get $10 discount for textured powder coated steel sheet to everyone who receives the printer with smooth PEI “sticker” spring steel sheet before and FREE shipping with it. More information in the article.

I really don't understand some people. Early buyer profit from the shipping situation. They have all the options:
1. Get the printer early with more expensive sheet.
2. Buy textured sheet for $14,99 (no shipping costs)
3. Delay the order until textures sheet is available
4. Cancel the order

The printer is advertised with textured sheet and that's why you can get all this advantages. Otherwise PR could just drop all this options and advertised with smooth sheet. I like it, how he managed it.

You've completely missed the point, unfortunately!

The issue is not whether you can get the powder coated sheet or not. Of course, you can. Otherwise, Prusa would be effectively scamming its customers. The point is that they are not clear in their advertising and communication about the state of the printer. If they were all clear about what is going on, people still have the options you listed. However, other who don't want to wait or don't want to jump through the extra hoops, or don't want to pay additional $15 for something they though was already included have the option to not order at all.

Re: Bait and switch

The whole Ad-discussion is actually obsolete. If you buy now, you should get the sheet like advertised. This is what my order page is showing:

You've completely missed the point, unfortunately!

The issue is not whether you can get the powder coated sheet or not. Of course, you can. Otherwise, Prusa would be effectively scamming its customers. The point is that they are not clear in their advertising and communication about the state of the printer. If they were all clear about what is going on, people still have the options you listed. However, other who don't want to wait or don't want to jump through the extra hoops, or don't want to pay additional $15 for something they though was already included have the option to not order at all.

If you have already ordered and want to wait for the textured powder coated sheet, you can contact support and ask them. They will delay your order a few extra weeks (assuming you ordered it in 2017)

If you ordered in 2018, It is already as you say it should be.
If you buy now, you *should* get the powder coated bed. As your order likely will ship last week of March into April.

The Smooth PEI coating will only ship another 1-3 weeks. (depending on how late in February they start shipping the Powder coated)
There is STILL a 2+ month wait to get your Mk3 if you order it today. (It's actually a longer "planned" ship estimate than when I ordered 2 months ago!

Re: Bait and switch

After being a forum member reading it daily since the MK3 was announced, here's my two cents:

- this type of thread appears periodically, there's at least once a month. None of them will ever get an official reply (the forum has basically no moderation except the occasional announcement topics and/or an intervention from Joseph), none of them will get closed or "solved" somehow. But they're good for venting and cooling off.

- the communication from Prusa is indeed quite poor, nobody is contradicting that. Yes, there should be a status page; yes, the newsletter subscription email addresses could have been used as an announcement channel. The problem is even in that case, you will *still* get people who don't get/read the email, so it's somehow of a futile effort (especially considering the madness after the first units were launched). I read somewhere that this is how Czech people work, they don't talk/communicate much, but in the end the job gets done - perhaps this is true and quite a surprise to some that are used to other styles of vendor communications. Of course, it's not like you'll read an announcement about this at top of the shop page.

- the PEI sheet was handled very honorably. Let's be real, most of the people buying the printer would have purchased a 2nd/3rd sheet anyway to benefit from the quick swap feature; the PEI sheet I quite like and has the advantage of being renewable (with some work), which can't be said about the powdercoated sheet (you can't do easily do powdercoating at home). Yeah, it's shit being in a position to depend on other people - what option would there have been ? instead of delivering the first units in November, an announcement saying "we can't get the proper sheets, please wait another 4 months" ? it'd have been an even bigger shitstorm.

In the end, if you don't like the situation or feel somehow cheated - you can always cancel the order or return the product. This is not a bait and switch; a bait and switch can probably be said about the many Kickstarters which (over)promised and never delivered. Voting with your wallet is the only real vote 🙂 otherwise, just like throwing up a party, there will always be dissatisfied people. And before I'm being accused of being a Prusa fanboy, my experience so far has been less than expected for the printer's fame. However, support has been excellent; at least for the moment, I'm confident the current problems will be solved/ironed out; the documentation and forums are very useful and am glad to support them by buying their original printer instead of a MK3 clone.

Keep calm and ... print ! with whatever printer you feel it's worth your money 🙂

Re: Bait and switch

I think a prerequisite for being on this forum is the propensity to use the phrase "vote with your wallet."

You guys love it. Lol

Re: Bait and switch

Probably because it's the last "weapon" in the consumer's hands 🙂

Also, just because I feel this is worth mentioning: there was a picture roaming around on Facebook from Prusa's factory showing a returned kit box. All of the parts (frame, steppers, PCB, rods) were thrown in the cardboard box like groceries in a bag. Clearly the receiver was not the kind of person who'd be a match for working with a device attempting to precisely layer 0.4 mm melted plastic on a heated bed 🙂 and I'd certainly not want to work on their support team at the moment.

Re: Bait and switch

Probably because it's the last "weapon" in the consumer's hands 🙂

What is the last weapon? Using the phrase over and over again sounding much like a parrot?

Re: Bait and switch

Nope, canceling your order or not buying. The rest is dust in the wind, as the song says.

Re: Bait and switch

Nope, canceling your order or not buying. The rest is dust in the wind, as the song says.

I can tell you like catchphrases and cliches. 😉

Re: Bait and switch

You've completely missed the point, unfortunately!

The issue is not whether you can get the powder coated sheet or not. Of course, you can. Otherwise, Prusa would be effectively scamming its customers. The point is that they are not clear in their advertising and communication about the state of the printer. If they were all clear about what is going on, people still have the options you listed. However, other who don't want to wait or don't want to jump through the extra hoops, or don't want to pay additional $15 for something they though was already included have the option to not order at all.

You're right. I can't get your point.
Pretty clear official communication to me: https://www.prusaprinters.org/mk3-is-shipping/

Even if you haven't done any research and klick on "buy a kit", you are getting clear status information:
"PREORDER! Shipping started late November. New orders to be shipped in March 2018! Refer to the shipping table (Order details in your account)"
Check your order detail in your account and you should find all the details about PEI sheet and shipping dates. Can someone confirm this without a MK3 purchase?

Re: Bait and switch

that statement only shows after you have paid no where does it show that