Bait and switch  

Re: Bait and switch

You have to remember that when you order tech that's on the cutting edge there will always be bugs early. Crap, you remember the Samsung Note 7 with the explosive battery? What about iPhone users who had to deal with issues with their new phones at launch. This is not an isolated issue with Prusa, every company more or less handles it in a similar way, wait for their customers to complain and the issues will get resolved. When's the last time you had a piece of technology and a bug was discovered and the company contacted you proactively? I'll wait.... Never. I'm not an apologist for the company or the product but I expected bugs when I ordered early, it comes with the territory. Crap, I actually cancelled my order over the PSU thread and thought better of it and decided to proceed with my order. If you mailshot your entire customer base with a laundry list of bugs that may or may not impact them you will generate hysteria. Prusa support is fantastic, you have an issue and they will correct it for you.

Except carriers for the Note 7 starting shutting off service on those phones to force people into trading them back in, would you call that proactive contact? 🙂

Expecting bugs yes, laundry list of issues no. They should have spent another two or three months perfecting this before it was announced or available for order. Some of the mishaps in this are absolutely hilarious for the class of printer this is supposed to be.

Re: Bait and switch

When's the last time you had a piece of technology and a bug was discovered and the company contacted you proactively? I'll wait.... Never.

Last night. Pop-up on iPhone telling me there's an OS update available and asking me to do it now or schedule.

My AV receiver and TV have also done this relatively recently if we want to consider things that are "not like a computer".

Something not a connected device requiring human contact? This rules out almost all tech, so let's widen the net - last Friday - Nissan contacted me about a possible defect in my car to book it in with a letter.

Just does it automatically with no interaction? All the time (Steam).

Even this, labelled as the official support forum (it's more a self-help group, really), lacks any sort of pinned thread about known issues and resolutions - why? When people get concerned, Joe appears defensive which, whilst understandable with your baby, can come across really badly. An example would be the issue people have with tensioning the X axis - Joe himself basically shot this down as not an issue - and then we get updated parts where the X axis has a tension adjustment appear on Prusa's github...

Yes, the support team are awesome. Sadly I have needed them many times (currently I'm waiting for my 5th visit from the UPS man), but they have always been great to me.

Re: Bait and switch

They should have spent another two or three months perfecting this before it was announced or available for order. Some of the mishaps in this are absolutely hilarious for the class of printer this is supposed to be.

This is perfectly fine personal opinion. In my case I want to have a top notch product which might be not perfect but open source, so I can modify it. For me is PR closer to the aAnet, Creality,... companies then to big players like Stratasys.
I'm not sure what kind of "class of printer" you see in Prusa i3. For me it's a kit which is under heavy development from PR and the community. In addition they offer warranty and first class online support. If it stays the same, there will be always new better product, new better part, new better software. New things to complain about and finding a working solution. That's why I'm fine to pay a little bit more then for other kits and at the end getting better printing results.

Re: Bait and switch

This is perfectly fine personal opinion. In my case I want to have a top notch product which might be not perfect but open source, so I can modify it.

In total agreement with you, but I think our definition of "might not be perfect" differs quite a bit. Keep in mind I paid extra for the pre-assembled option, so in that regard where you look at this as a "kit", I am looking at this as a professionally built and tuned printer. This is what I received on my unit that should have been detected before it ever went out the door:

And that doesn't cover all the other issues that we've listed earlier in the thread, these are just obvious things that I find it hard to believe they "missed".

I have to ask the question, could it be that an entire 3d printing company managed to miss these defects during assemblies? I think it's more likely they announced before they were ready, but instead of doing the right thing and holding off to fix issues, they wanted to ride the hype/profit train and turned a blind eye to the glaring issues.

Re: Bait and switch

Meanwhile Joey is now Tweeting about how he's in Japan tapping their market. Lol.

Knows about all the issues. Denies them. And CONtinues to sell a faulty product.

Re: Bait and switch

I have to ask the question, could it be that an entire 3d printing company managed to miss these defects during assemblies? I think it's more likely they announced before they were ready, but instead of doing the right thing and holding off to fix issues, they wanted to ride the hype/profit train and turned a blind eye to the glaring issues.

I understand that. Saw already couple complains about the prebuild printer. Let's do the calculation. If you assume a usual assembly time of 8 hours and costs of $20/hour, you will get $160 in total. Let's compare kit-version $749 vs pre-build version $999. You can see there is no time for double/triple QA and perfect adjustments. That's why I always would recommend to go for a kit version. To improve that process, they would need to raise the build costs. How much are you willing to pay for it?

It seems like you got a Monday version with couple issues. But items 3. and 4. is something you will always need to adjust. Especially grinding Y bearing is by Prusa i3 design a weak point and need perfect fitting components (rod,bearing,frame), assembly to be silent.
So I don't think waiting couple of month would change anything. Actually releasing early is better in OpenSource projects. This way more people can test, provide feedback and improve the product for other people who are on back order.

Re: Bait and switch

What I find interesting, is that I attended the TCT event in Birmingham and saw the working Mk3 on display, jump through hoops... was this magic?

Filament sensor worked, the housing wasn't noticeably melted...
Power Panic worked
Lost step detection/ shifted layer detection worked,
software endstops worked,
there were no obvious piles of iron filings under the smooth rods
Powder coated sheets were on display and in use,
You couldn't hear the printer.... (however the room was very noisy and you couldn't hear any printer... 😀 )
The Pinda worked,
the filament didn't jam,
the filament didn't escape from the extruder assembly anywhere except the nozzle...
the Spiral wrap didn't seem to rip the thermistors out on a regular basis...
I didn't notice any smoke or mirrors...
nor did I notice a pile of rust exuding out of the extruder from the Bondtech filament feed
They didn't need dynamite to get the prints off the build plate! 😈 or super goop, to keep the prints on the buildplate... 😮
the belts didn't seem to be shredding themselves left right and centre...
I didn't notice a fire extinguisher or a stack of spare power packs... I did see a naked Einsy and I don't recall it having a daughter board....

I admit I didn't see the ambient temperature sensor work, or the various exotic filaments in use
The printer just seemed to work!

was this a different reality?

I have received my printer, coz I was daft enough to cough up the full price early and cross my fingers...
it arrived and I built it using the online build manual, I didn't even open the enclosed booklet...
it went together well,
I received Spiral wrap, and put it on one side, preferring to use Braided cable covers from Day 1

I chose to add a patch on the back of the X motor, which had a tongue hanging down, to terminate the top of the X motor cable braid, because I didn't like it being unsupported...

I chose to print a JLTX X axis back panel to give me access to the belts, should I need to re adjust them, ---- I haven't needed to readjust them.
I tried a couple of different part cooling ducts... and I am actually using a non standard duct. apart from that the printer is standard, including the non magnetic soft stainless smooth rods, which are pretty much the same as the ones on my Mk2,

My belts don't seem to shred, I have a toothed idler for X and Y axis,, but have not fitted them yet.

my filament sensor doesn't like two of my filaments... shiny transparent green PETG and Shiny Black TPU, so I just turn it off... and the printer carries on regardless I am progressing the filament sensor with Prusa support!

touch wood, I haven't had a shifted layer problem yet... the printer had corrected shifted layers a small number of times... mainly when I have been sticking my fingers in the way...

I didn't get a powder coated build plate, but I will get one when they become available, no biggie, to me...
I have noticed a number of revised parts available, but am in no rush to rebuild at the moment. what I have seems to be working quite nicely

I think I am on the latest firmware,
and the latest driver pack...
I have only printed PLA, TPU and PETG so far, I will never print ABS, because the fumes attack my chest...

My Filament holder seems to project a little too far forward on the lower flange, and obstructs the X carriage but this may be because I have a non standard X axis back plate as mentioned above, so that may be an own goal... I did toy with the JLTX cobra part cooling duct, this did improve visibility of the nozzle, but it also collided with the magnetic bed retaining pins and the heatbed power connector cover, so I have taken that off...
there is a revised version of this cooler, which I have not tried yet...

I am just getting on and printing things with the Mk3...

I havent used the Mk2 MMU much since I got the Mk3, however i do have some multi colour prints coming up soon... I would love to have My mk2.5 upgrade soon, so I can change the heatbed on the Mk2, to the removable metal plate version, but I will probably have to change the PEI for the first time ever on the mk2... it's getting a bit tatty now... I am surprised how long it's lasted.... especially when I use sharp scrapers to remove models...

I do have a 'better printer' ( huge tongue in cheek) it came with everything that was promised,
It was a lot less expensive than the prusa's... there was no massive pre order delay,
they never mentioned the build manual would be written in Chinglish, nor did they mention that the parts list would be for a different printer, the bearings and rods were 'A loose sliding fit' Very loose, they promised to send replacements and didn't... there was no protective cover over the mains connections or low voltage connections. the power supply didn't line up with the mounting holes, the Perspex frame was Junk. and the extruder was impossible to load without disassembling the cold end cooling heatsink and fan... there have been no firmware updates, the slicer was Slic3r but there were no pre formatted profiles... no sample models. no helpdesk...

whilst it prints, I have never had a 'Good' print out of it...

the suppliers just disappeared off ebay. never to be seen again

so it languishes in the attic waiting for someone to have more time than me to fix it...

I think I prefer the Prusa Approach...

regards Joan

Re: Bait and switch

They're not handing out stickered sheets out of the goodness of their own hearts. They're doing it because $750 worth of printer is being held up by a $25 or whatever part.

Remember these printers are paid for at time of order. So nothing is being held up as Prusa have already been paid - all they are trying to do is to act honorably and supply demand as fairly as they can.

Those who dislike the way Prusa does business should vote with their wallet, cancel their orders and buy a different product. And stop cluttering up the forum with pointless whining as those of us who are satisfied with Prusa and their products do not really care if you are not.

Re: Bait and switch

Those who dislike the way Prusa does business should vote with their wallet, cancel their orders and buy a different product. And stop cluttering up the forum with pointless whining as those of us who are satisfied with Prusa and their products do not really care if you are not.

Can’t cancel, already own it and it’s in pieces again waiting for UPS again. There’s been a bunch of constructive criticism in this thread, which Prusa could learn from if they care to listen and move on from startup mode.

What do you think about Prusa misleading customers with the advertising and review units (reason for this thread in the first place) and how they communicate about problems (another topic of this thread)? Do you think the absence of a FAQ about items support will sort out for you and tests for them (such as magnets on the rods) would be a good thing?

Care to be constructive in a discussion or just want to tell people to shut up some more... on a support forum... which is where people with problems are going to be. Why are you here?

Re: Bait and switch

I think I prefer the Prusa Approach...

regards Joan

Thank you Joan. The voice of balance and reason, as usual.

Prusa is by no means perfect, and I have yet to see anyone who claims they are. 3D printing is still a mixture of science and voodoo. People have problems (and not just with their printers), which is unfortunate but remains a part of life. Kit builds are especially susceptible to problems for obvious reasons.

But using the "bang for buck" ratio Prusa has to be right up there at the top. I'm sure when the OP gets his printer and comes back here with a genuine issue there will be plenty of people willing to help.

Re: Bait and switch

What I find interesting, is that I attended the TCT event in Birmingham and saw the working Mk3 on display, jump through hoops... was this magic?

Filament sensor worked, the housing wasn't noticeably melted...
Power Panic worked
Lost step detection/ shifted layer detection worked,
software endstops worked,
there were no obvious piles of iron filings under the smooth rods
Powder coated sheets were on display and in use,
You couldn't hear the printer.... (however the room was very noisy and you couldn't hear any printer... 😀 )
The Pinda worked,
the filament didn't jam,
the filament didn't escape from the extruder assembly anywhere except the nozzle...
the Spiral wrap didn't seem to rip the thermistors out on a regular basis...
I didn't notice any smoke or mirrors...
nor did I notice a pile of rust exuding out of the extruder from the Bondtech filament feed
They didn't need dynamite to get the prints off the build plate! 😈 or super goop, to keep the prints on the buildplate... 😮
the belts didn't seem to be shredding themselves left right and centre...
I didn't notice a fire extinguisher or a stack of spare power packs... I did see a naked Einsy and I don't recall it having a daughter board....

I admit I didn't see the ambient temperature sensor work, or the various exotic filaments in use
The printer just seemed to work!

Thing is, as a software engineer... i see this issue in desktop software.... you can run 20 copies on different machine, have 100 beta testers before launch... but when you reach 1000+ user's things change soooo much. there are literally 1000's of different configurations and 1000 different ways people use it you don't see and it fails... JR developers will use the "works for me" tone, like prusa but the problems are real. now days in software we can send all crash and debug and log info to a server or some other friendly way a customer can supply it and we fix the issues ASAP or before any one else notices. A farm of 300 printers printing the same parts in nearly the same colors is only good for wear and tear testing, which is much different once you push 300 or 1000 to each a different person printing different materials, colors, speeds and models..... if there is ANY problem it will show itself immediately within that first 1-2 weeks.

As far as the whole advertisement of what it comes with.... in most marketing departments and legal department you MUST state so before purchase. Perhaps a drop down with a list of sheets and the other's un-available. that will clear it up very easily actually.

Lets look at E3D titans with bad bearings... they shipped some with igus now and it states this on their product page that you will get one with IGUS bearings AND all re-sellers must also show this too. it's literally like a less than 5 minute change in any ecommerce.... so the fact it's being debated is ridiculous and where i work legal wouldn't approve even listing it without stating so due to the major issues it would cause when you have 1000's of customers/buyers. Even if you sent an email, or posted it on reddit, on your blog or here.... even if 1000's of customers knew it and it was on TV... there will be SOME who don't know.... there always is.

Re: Bait and switch

As far as the whole advertisement of what it comes with.... in most marketing departments and legal department you MUST state so before purchase. Perhaps a drop down with a list of sheets and the other's un-available. that will clear it up very easily actually.

As well as a software engineer you are also a lawyer and a marketing guru? Impressive. 😆

Re: Bait and switch

Trawl forums & blogs yourself, Prusa won't contact you.

If you're the kind of person who PRE-ordered an mk3, then you're on the boards already plus half a dozen subreddits and other communities. I agree more official engagement would always be good, but I don't expect a personal phone call from JP every time someone has the slightest issue.

Also keep in mind as good as it is this is still a hobbyist kit south of a grand, not a 20k$ stratasys with an onsite support contract. I've had my share of issues too, but every time support has taken care of me OR there's been a fix or active discussion here. I'm not unhappy.

Re: Bait and switch

Trawl forums & blogs yourself, Prusa won't contact you.

If you're the kind of person who PRE-ordered an mk3, then you're on the boards already plus half a dozen subreddits and other communities. I agree more official engagement would always be good, but I don't expect a personal phone call from JP every time someone has the slightest issue.

My sign-up date here is the day I ordered, so no. I'm not on Reddit. I watched reviews and read articles before purchasing along with knowing people who had a great experience with the Mk2. I'll ignore the lampooning, I don't think it's constructive or helpful, needless to say no-one has suggested JP personally calls them.

Also keep in mind as good as it is this is still a hobbyist kit south of a grand, not a 20k$ stratasys with an onsite support contract. I've had my share of issues too, but every time support has taken care of me OR there's been a fix or active discussion here. I'm not unhappy.

I'm glad you're not unhappy. I'm not unhappy, but there's massive room for improvement. Even if we disagree about Prusa mailshotting owners when they discover major problems (like they sent out the wrong rods or that the spiral wrap can tear out thermisters), I think we can (hopefully) all agree that the information is too scattered - I found out about the rods on YouTube, I found out about the spiral wrap on Josefs blog, I found some software updates here and some by browsing the drivers page myself. Keeping yourself informed about problems and progress with the Mk3 is far more effort than it needs to be.

Simply having a stickied thread with known issues, dates/order number ranges of when it was a problem and fixes where applicable would be very useful indeed. Yes, this isn't a $20K printer, equally it's way above a $150 one. If Prusa want to be at a level where casual customers can buy their kit and get the best out of it, they need to improve aftercare - it should be as simple as looking up the product and being able to see all of this stuff.

Re: Bait and switch

Those who dislike the way Prusa does business should vote with their wallet, cancel their orders and buy a different product. And stop cluttering up the forum with pointless whining as those of us who are satisfied with Prusa and their products do not really care if you are not.

(emphasis mine)

Because there is no reason to improve anything?

If someone has problems with Prusa, where else should they post it? That someone actually takes time to write a post usually means they really are interested in the product and hope to see things aren't as bad as they appear.

Apart from the OPs title, I don't think he's whining.
A few linebreaks would increase readability, of course.

Just because something is insignificant to you doesn't mean it has to be insignificant to everyone else. The world does it's own revolving, it doesn't need any of us as center.

Re: Bait and switch

Those who dislike the way Prusa does business should vote with their wallet, cancel their orders and buy a different product. And stop cluttering up the forum with pointless whining as those of us who are satisfied with Prusa and their products do not really care if you are not.

(emphasis mine)

Because there is no reason to improve anything?

If someone has problems with Prusa, where else should they post it? That someone actually takes time to write a post usually means they really are interested in the product and hope to see things aren't as bad as they appear.

Apart from the OPs title, I don't think he's whining.
A few linebreaks would increase readability, of course.

Just because something is insignificant to you doesn't mean it has to be insignificant to everyone else. The world does it's own revolving, it doesn't need any of us as center.

Perhaps I could have phrased my comments better. But by his own admission OP only posted here to vent his feelings. There is nothing anyone on this forum can do to change OP's dissatisfaction with the way his order was conducted - that is between him and Prusa, leaving the rest of us to get on with improving things and helping each other.

Re: Bait and switch

Those who dislike the way Prusa does business should vote with their wallet, cancel their orders and buy a different product. And stop cluttering up the forum with pointless whining as those of us who are satisfied with Prusa and their products do not really care if you are not.

(emphasis mine)

Because there is no reason to improve anything?

If someone has problems with Prusa, where else should they post it? That someone actually takes time to write a post usually means they really are interested in the product and hope to see things aren't as bad as they appear.

Apart from the OPs title, I don't think he's whining.
A few linebreaks would increase readability, of course.

Just because something is insignificant to you doesn't mean it has to be insignificant to everyone else. The world does it's own revolving, it doesn't need any of us as center.

Perhaps I could have phrased my comments better. But by his own admission OP only posted here to vent his feelings. There is nothing anyone on this forum can do to change OP's dissatisfaction with the way his order was conducted - that is between him and Prusa, leaving the rest of us to get on with improving things and helping each other.

alfred you sound just like a fanboy ffs

Re: Bait and switch

Perhaps I could have phrased my comments better. But by his own admission OP only posted here to vent his feelings. There is nothing anyone on this forum can do to change OP's dissatisfaction with the way his order was conducted - that is between him and Prusa, leaving the rest of us to get on with improving things and helping each other.

Sometimes it's necessary to vent, and as long as it's civil (apart from the title I think it was), personally, I don't mind. Venting (or gushing for the opposite) is a good way for others to see honest opinions, even if they have to be taken with a grain (or an entire saline) of salt.

The community can't directly change the way things are, but we can change the opinion of the OP - since he came here pre-emptively apologizing, I'm sure he didn't merely want to blow off steam (that too), but be reassured that his decision was good after all, and explained why it's not that much of a big deal.

As for his research, it's a kind of tunnel vision, you look everywhere but the "obvious" locations - for me, "everywhere" means "Hit google and look around your known Youtube Channels", I'll probably not think about "search the producers website for mailing lists or blogs" either.
Logic is always subjective. Unless it's boolean.

Re: Bait and switch

(emphasis mine)

Because there is no reason to improve anything?

If someone has problems with Prusa, where else should they post it? That someone actually takes time to write a post usually means they really are interested in the product and hope to see things aren't as bad as they appear.

Apart from the OPs title, I don't think he's whining.
A few linebreaks would increase readability, of course.

Just because something is insignificant to you doesn't mean it has to be insignificant to everyone else. The world does it's own revolving, it doesn't need any of us as center.

Perhaps I could have phrased my comments better. But by his own admission OP only posted here to vent his feelings. There is nothing anyone on this forum can do to change OP's dissatisfaction with the way his order was conducted - that is between him and Prusa, leaving the rest of us to get on with improving things and helping each other.

alfred you sound just like a fanboy ffs

Now, now, let's not get personal...

There is a point to what he's saying. Posting just to bitch does no one any good so I can see alfred.w's point. However, there is something to be said about expressing dissatisfaction. At the very least, this is the only place where the OP can do that and get some sympathy or re-assurance.

Re: Bait and switch

The forums SHOULD also be a great place to air your grievances with the company. Especially with the hopes that someone from within Prusa would read it. However, it has been my experience now that they don't take the time to do so. Although, I was just informed by someone in support chat that they have a team of people who look on the web for people's opinions and gather them. Apparently, that doesn't include their own forums.

My opinion is that Prusa HAS to improve on their customer service if they want to continue to grow. My impression is that they are too arrogant to realize their issues. The list of issues speaks for itself. They can't even be bothered to proactively tell me that my printer is now delayed almost two months due to ordering the MMU with the printer. How did I find this out? By accident. I was contacting support to have my printer shipment delayed a week (based off of projected ship dates) and found out it won't be shipped until April. It's on the order history page... at the bottom of the page.

Being a system engineering manager for many years, I decided that it might be good to talk to the head of support or sales. Using the chat function to get the contact info has proven to be a lot more difficult than you would think. The person from last night refused to give the info. The person that I just chatted with gave me a name, but the generic email address for info@prusa. Each person I chatted with has told me they are buried with a lot of concurrent chat sessions for support. To me, it's clear that they have significant growing pains and are actively refusing to improve their customer service. It's not difficult to get information to their customers proactively. It's not difficult to improve what they are doing. They are at small scales and should be able to adjust a lot faster than this. Other companies are starting to look really good to me now. I may be taking my ~$1,400 elsewhere.

You attract customers with great products. You KEEP customers with great customer service.

Thanks,
Robert