Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
I have a couple smooth spring plates that lost their adhesion properties. Not sure what causes this. I clean the plates with 70% alcohol. Is there a way to restore the adhesion to these plates? Please note, bottom of the print is the top of the finish product that I print. Any solution will need to keep this finish. Thank you!
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
I start with an escalation of forces type of approach:
- Alcohol: I use it every few prints. I use 91% or better isopropyl alcohol. I spray it on a cool bed and let it sit for 10-15 seconds and wipe it off with a lint-free towel. Once in a while, an alcohol rinse is helpful to remove PLA residue. It does not remove finger oils as well as soap and water.
- Dish soap and water: Alcohol doesn't clean the body oils off the bed; soap and water do. I prefer Dawn dish soap. Wash the bed in hot water, use a fresh paper towel as a washcloth, with a few drops of plain dish soap. Rinse well in hot water - if you have very soft water, rinse a bit longer. If you are going to scrub the surface, use a non-scratch sponge. Try with a lint-free towel.
- Acetone wash: Use very, very sparingly. This should be a last resort if you are considering tossing and replacing the surface. Do not under any circumstances soak the surface. Pour a 1-2 cm puddle of acetone on the bed. Spread it around with a fresh paper towel. It will evaporate fast as you clean. You do not want to leave it on there long. This step removes PEI oxides that form over time. It will improve PLA adhesion to a like-new state. I have 10 printers that use textured and smooth sheets. I have done this 4 times with great success in 3 years. This should what I mean by sparingly.
I do 1 and 2 every week. #3 have done only 4 times on two different sheets in 3 years. They were troubled from the start and it worked at resetting them when I consider tossing them.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
I use dishsoap and hot water, rub vigorously with a clean sponge, rinse with hot water and dry immediately with plain paper towels then keep my fingers off the build surface, handling only by the edges...
I use 7x7 mesh bed levelling, and I set Live Z with Life adjust Z my way,
As you use the bottom face of the models as the finish surface I expect your Live Z is already good.
In really stubbor cases with the Smooth PEI sheets, some folk use fine grit wet and dry paper 1000 grit or 1200 grit. (as used on motor car refinishing) to address the surface rejuvenation.
with textured build plates you can use the scotchbright side of a kitchen sponge
regards Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Agreed with everything Joan & Chuck have suggested. I spent a lot of time figuring out these issues myself (with thanks to Joan and others here), and summed it up as "The Riddle of Adhesion" (with apologies to Robert E. Howard and Conan):
Without good first layer adhesion, you’re going to have a difficult time achieving good print results. It’s worth spending some time getting familiar with the bed characteristics when starting out. PEI has excellent adhesion properties for most common hobbyist filaments but does require some basic maintenance.
The riddle of adhesion
You’ve probably seen some of these guidelines before and may have wondered exactly why these simple sounding steps work. Here’s an unscientific breakdown.
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Isopropyl alcohol 3 and acetone 4 work as solvents 1 , breaking apart grease molecules. These solvents do not completely dissolve grease but do break it down far enough that it can be removed from surfaces easily.
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The more concentrated the solvent, the more effective it will be at a given volume. Those little 70% isopropyl wipes do work… on a shiny new PEI sheet. They’re just not effective in dealing with larger amounts of accumulated grease. This is why 91%+ alcohol is recommended.
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Acetone is even more effective, breaking up oxidation on the PEI surface, but can make the PEI surface brittle and prone to cracking if over-used.
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The amount of grease that any solvent will effectively break down is directly proportional to the volume of solvent to grease. The more you apply, the more grease it can effectively break down. The more concentrated the solvent, the more grease a given quantity can break down.
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Alcohol, acetone, and any other solution you apply directly to the bed is just going to move those broken-down grease and grime molecules around. Some will be picked up by wiping with a clean towel, but some will remain on the PEI sheet.
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A dunk under the sink with Dawn dish soap is the most effective method of cleaning. Dish soap is a surfactant 2 , not a solvent. It works in a fundamentally different way, bonding both grease and water molecules to wash away contaminants.The reason this is so effective is not because Dawn is “stronger”, but because there’s simply a much greater volume of Dawn and water and the grease is washed away from the PEI sheet.
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Windex, a wipe of finger grease, talcum powder or specialized release agents can be used to reduce adhesion when using hot, sticky materials that grip the PEI surface too firmly such as PETG. It is still a good idea to clean the PEI before a print to get an even surface, even if you will be applying a release agent for pritning with sticky materials.
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If you are printing high-temperature materials (e.g. PETG at 260C on a 90C bed), test to make sure it will release once cool without damaging the PEI surface. You may want to use glue stick or other release agents for these materials. Test on a sacrificial PEI surface if possible.
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Thank you all for not only the excellent information but for the in-depth detail and reasoning! I'll try the Dawn and New Sponge solution on one of my worst plates. Thank you again!
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Given the above commentary on finger oils, it sounds as though it may be less effort to glove up before touching the build surface than it is to clean-up the consequences of not gloving-up.
As long as we're comparing notes, I'm presently using anhydrous IPA in an IPA-proof spray bottle to saturate the build surface. Then I agitate the surface by wiping it with paper towels. Then I saturate it again with IPA and then immediately blow it off the surface (as best I can) with compressed air from an otherwise pretty quiet oil-free California Air compressor. I do this in the garage, so I presume whatever contaminates are swimming in the IPA solution when it gets blown off get deposited on the floor and becomes dust when the IPA evaporates. Or, maybe it gets sponged up by the concrete--not really sure, but I don't see any stains or accumulation. I'm both gloved up and breathe through a 3M organic solvent filter when doing this so I don't breathe in the fumes. There's enough air leakage in the garage that those fumes dissipate on their own after I've stepped back into the house.
Nitrile gloves are only "fair" at resisting chemical attack by IPA, so you either need to wear butyl gloves or else wear thicker gloves out of nitrile or whatever and work quickly enough so as to finish-up before the IPA burns through it. I realize that some people use IPA as a hand sanitizer, but I'm skeptical of that practice. If I had my druthers I'd much prefer to use pure ethyl alcohol, but I don't know of an economic source for it. I presume laboratories can buy it cheaply without paying a fortune in taxation, but I'm guessing you have to be specially licensed to take advantage of that workaround. I briefly researched denatured alcohol, but it is arguably worse than IPA because there are hundreds of different formulations, many of which may contain methanol or other nasties that might get absorbed through your skin or lungs and make you sick.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Reading back through what I just wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm taking a lot of precautions, but the reality is that once set-up for this process it takes me less than a minute in total to put-on and take-off the gloves and respirator, so the amount of effort is minimal. Your health precautions are up to you. The EPA is pretty much out of business these days.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
@dimprov
Thanks for the info...
I wonder if you are part way to making a Fuel Air Bomb with IPA Mist in the Air... Hope there's nobody welding nearby!
🙂
I like the idea of ejecting oils in solution... if the solvent is simply allowed to evaporate any oils will simply form a thin film on the PEI Substrate and nothing is gained...
regards Joan
I try to make safe suggestions,You should understand the context and ensure you are happy that they are safe before attempting to apply my suggestions, what you do, is YOUR responsibility. Location Halifax UK
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
@dimprov
I am not sure the EPA would have anything to do with individual 3d printers. The EPA usually only goes after businesses.
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Chuck H
3D Printer Review Blog
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Nitrile gloves are only "fair" at resisting chemical attack by IPA, so you either need to wear butyl gloves or else wear thicker gloves out of nitrile or whatever and work quickly enough so as to finish-up before the IPA burns through it.
Where did you get this information? I work in an R&D lab and come into contact with isopropyl alcohol almost daily; as far as I'm aware, nitrile gloves have excellent resistance to isopropyl alcohol.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Have great success only cleaning my plate once every 3 - 4 weeks. (Yes weeks) and I print most days. I am very careful not to touch the print surface with my fingers. Once I start getting imperfection on the first layer I give it a good flush with IPA 90% followed by a thorough dishwashing soap and hot water clean.
I should caveat that my parts are rarely tall.
i3 Mk3 [aug 2018] upgrade>>> i3MK3/S+[Dec 2023]
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Nitrile gloves are only "fair" at resisting chemical attack by IPA, so you either need to wear butyl gloves or else wear thicker gloves out of nitrile or whatever and work quickly enough so as to finish-up before the IPA burns through it.
Where did you get this information? I work in an R&D lab and come into contact with isopropyl alcohol almost daily; as far as I'm aware, nitrile gloves have excellent resistance to isopropyl alcohol.
https://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart-3
or look up any chemical resistance chart. You may have better information, though, because I've found inconsistencies in such charts before.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Seems inconsistent indeed; e.g. Assurance.pdf (ufl.edu) and GLOVE SELECTION CHART (augusta.edu) , both list chemical resistance of nitrile to isopropanol as "Excellent".
Glove manufacturers Ansell and Kimtech list their own gloves as having "fair" resistance to IPA.
Even then, these compatibility tests mean that when you dunk the gloves in pure IPA, some permeation may occur after e.g. 60 minutes. Holding a wipe containing some IPA while wearing a nitrile glove is extremely unlikely to give any trouble whatsoever IMO.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
@dimprov
Thanks for the info...
I wonder if you are part way to making a Fuel Air Bomb with IPA Mist in the Air... Hope there's nobody welding nearby!
🙂I like the idea of ejecting oils in solution... if the solvent is simply allowed to evaporate any oils will simply form a thin film on the PEI Substrate and nothing is gained...
regards Joan
Yup, my thoughts exactly. You can often even see that the residue still there, just shifted around, if you do little more than let it evaporate.
As for the ignition risk, well I suppose it's not absolutely zero, but in my case it's probably darn close to zero: it's a big garage.
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RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Seems inconsistent indeed; e.g. Assurance.pdf (ufl.edu) and GLOVE SELECTION CHART (augusta.edu) , both list chemical resistance of nitrile to isopropanol as "Excellent".
Glove manufacturers Ansell and Kimtech list their own gloves as having "fair" resistance to IPA.
Even then, these compatibility tests mean that when you dunk the gloves in pure IPA, some permeation may occur after e.g. 60 minutes. Holding a wipe containing some IPA while wearing a nitrile glove is extremely unlikely to give any trouble whatsoever IMO.
It would be nice to know which chart researcher's at, say, a tier 1 research university look at when they have such questions.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
@dimprov
Indeed. Just FYI - as mentioned, I work in R&D at a large company and we're obliged to check the safety datasheet for pretty much every compound or solvent we use. I just took a look at the SDS of isopropanol, and with regards to skin protection, the following is mentioned in the SDS:
Hand Protection
Gloves suitable for permanent contact:
Material: nitrile rubber/nitrile latex. Breakthrough time: > = 480 min. Material thickness: 0.35 min.
Material: butyl rubber. Breakthrough time: > = 480 min. Material thickness: 0.5 min.Gloves suitable for splash protection: Material: polychloroprene. Breakthrough time: > = 240 min. Material
thickness: 0.5 min.Unsuitable gloves: Material: natural rubber/natural latex, polyvinyl chloride.
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Reading back through what I just wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm taking a lot of precautions, but the reality is that once set-up for this process it takes me less than a minute in total to put-on and take-off the gloves and respirator, so the amount of effort is minimal. Your health precautions are up to you. The EPA is pretty much out of business these days.
Well, that convinces me, even more, to go with the "Dunk with Dawn" approach whenever possible. I only use isopropyl alcohol in small quantities when needed. Haven't pulled the SDS on Dawn dish soap yet, but it's the most effective method of bed cleaning I've found.
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
@dimprov
Indeed. Just FYI - as mentioned, I work in R&D at a large company and we're obliged to check the safety datasheet for pretty much every compound or solvent we use. I just took a look at the SDS of isopropanol, and with regards to skin protection, the following is mentioned in the SDS:
Hand Protection
Gloves suitable for permanent contact:
Material: nitrile rubber/nitrile latex. Breakthrough time: > = 480 min. Material thickness: 0.35 min.
Material: butyl rubber. Breakthrough time: > = 480 min. Material thickness: 0.5 min.Gloves suitable for splash protection: Material: polychloroprene. Breakthrough time: > = 240 min. Material
thickness: 0.5 min.Unsuitable gloves: Material: natural rubber/natural latex, polyvinyl chloride.
Ah, good, that may explain some of the apparent inconsistencies. 😀 It seems the most useful number is the breakthrough time for a given minimal thickness glove. The chemical resistance charts are maybe just considering degradation, which according to https://www.grainger.com/know-how/safety/ppe-in-the-workplace/hand-protection/kh-safety-chemical-resistant-gloves-guide-191-qt may not be indicative of breakthrough time. 😎
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Reading back through what I just wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm taking a lot of precautions, but the reality is that once set-up for this process it takes me less than a minute in total to put-on and take-off the gloves and respirator, so the amount of effort is minimal. Your health precautions are up to you. The EPA is pretty much out of business these days.
Well, that convinces me, even more, to go with the "Dunk with Dawn" approach whenever possible. I only use isopropyl alcohol in small quantities when needed. Haven't pulled the SDS on Dawn dish soap yet, but it's the most effective method of bed cleaning I've found.
Which do you prefer? Ultra Dawn or Platinum Dawn? Platinum Dawn has a couple extra ingredients in it (shown in bold here: https://chemistrycachet.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-blue-dawn-dishwashing-liquid/, which also has links to the respective MSDS sheets).
RE: Spring Plate Loss of Adhesion
Which do you prefer? Ultra Dawn or Platinum Dawn? Platinum Dawn has a couple extra ingredients in it
I have a bottle of Dawn Ultra that has worked very well. There are other brands (Fairy in UK) that work equally well. This is definitely not something I discovered, and it's been mainstream knowledge in the 3D printing world for some time. The main thing is to avoid anything with hand softeners or other ingredients that can leave anything behind. There are a lot of discussions out there on other alternatives. The main thing is, you want to use a large amount of water with enough soap to act as a surfactant to bind to and rinse away contaminants, not just move them around.
and miscellaneous other tech projects
He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two dimensional thinking. -- Spock in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan