What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?  

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

It's interesting that you compare MK2S and MK3. There was a reason why MK2S was released ;). The early MK2 owners did replaced also many parts.
For me it was exactly the other way around. I started with an early MK2, had to modify and upgrade to MK2S. I got my MK3 when the firmware 3.2.1 was released and with v2 parts. It was much better experience with MK3 then my early MK2.

Anyway I understand the thrill to buy a cheap printer and upgrade it to something better. That's why I initially asked the OP to define his goals on the second printer. Nowadays there are so many options where you can pump your time and money in.

Just want to mention you could be lucky and get those kind of nice prints. But you could also be one of the guys with strange moire, artefacts, extrusion issues. Ending up changing everything and still get garbage prints. You should be aware of the risk of that journey.

I know MK2s fix some problems that MK2 had.
You got the MK3 on a good time, if you see my problems are all caused by R1 parts and firmware.
Still i can't agree with the problems and price tag, for the price you expect something good and problem free, at least at hardware and parts, because firmware can be updated with no problem, and i got a MK3 in release stage, not beta or alpha. I fell like they not tested the product properly, many people complained about the same, how it possible the testing team don't notice small problems like belt twist and rubing the idler? Almost every person with R1 parts suffer from that and they keeping selling that.
Now MK3 can worth the price, but on that time i won't in my opinion.

About the lucky at cheap printer thats true, the good part is you can and must tune everything inside the box, never trust pre assembled printer. Do your measures and improve what come wrong.
One good thing about creality is the support on parts, if you get something damaged, lets say LCD, you contact creality email and they send you a replacement part for free. No matter if you buy from ali, ebay, etc you just need to send a proof and your order id.
One guy got a new LCD just because a horizontal line was missing, i never thought that gona happen with a chinesse brand, even when lcd works and the problem is minor.
Other plus for people who know CR products, they listen community, learn with errors and improve on next model that a good thing for buyers.

Don't get me wrong i love the MK3, and after heavy modding (yes my mk3 is not a mk3 anymore too 😀 ) i solved all my problems...

Aside from having to reprint all the MK3 parts so that you'd have R2 parts, what other worthwhile mods to the MK3 did you make? So far the only mod I've made to my MK3 has been upgrading to a micro swiss heat break and then a standard Volcano to get faster print speeds. I'm very glad I did. Presently I can print at 150mm/sec (or 175mm/sec draft mode), which I feel is a significant improvement. I'll probably upgrade to a 350 watt power supply and an all copper volcano with 40w heater cartridge soon. I may later be upgrading the MK3 to either a skelestruder or a Titan Aero to (hopefully) get even faster print speeds still, but the mods needed to do that are still beta at this time.

When i talk about mods i refer to printed parts, the only metalic parts i have added to printer is a heatshink on extruder and led bar.
You print very fast, you do that speed only for infill or global? perimeters, small perimeters, gaps?

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

You print very fast, you do that speed only for infill or global? perimeters, small perimeters, gaps?

For everywhere that it's possible, and where acceleration limits don't preclude it. 😀 Here, there's a whole thread about it:
https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/hardware-firmware-and-software-help-f64/does-someone-want-to-know-how-fast-they-can-print--t19284-s50.html
I invite you to join in the discussion. The OP on that thread says he can print at 350mm/sec, although I believe that's on a build-it-from-scratch machine he did that's based on the Prusa I3 design. The main relevant difference, as far as speed goes, seems to be that he's using a Titan Aero extruder. The guy who developed the skelestruder says he can also print at comparable speeds. I myself just today reached 200mm/sec, and I think there's hope for pushing it higher even with the stock Prusa I3 MK3 (upgraded to use the volcano), which is what I'm using at present. Since you also have a volcano, it would be great to get your input.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

...
Still i can't agree with the problems and price tag, for the price you expect something good and problem free, at least at hardware and parts, because firmware can be updated with no problem, and i got a MK3 in release stage, not beta or alpha. I fell like they not tested the product properly, many people complained about the same, how it possible the testing team don't notice small problems like belt twist and rubing the idler? Almost every person with R1 parts suffer from that and they keeping selling that.
Now MK3 can worth the price, but on that time i won't in my opinion.
...

Prusa release stage was and is always a beta stage. So far I can see it on every product MK2, MK2MM, MK3 and I also expect it to see on the MK3MMU as-well. The thing I like is that the current product is getting improved, not only the next one. Means MK2 was improved, MK2MMU was improved and MK3 was also improved. But I also fully understand if people don't like that concept because nobody in reviews is talking about this. The only thing you see in the marketing are the awards.

I like to see other companies like CR are also providing replacement parts. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why CR products are so famous.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

You print very fast, you do that speed only for infill or global? perimeters, small perimeters, gaps?

For everywhere that it's possible. 😀 Here, there's a whole thread about it:
https://shop.prusa3d.com/forum/hardware-firmware-and-software-help-f64/does-someone-want-to-know-how-fast-they-can-print--t19284-s50.html
I invite you to join in the discussion. The OP on that thread says he can print at 350mm/sec, although I believe that's on a build-it-from-scratch machine he did that's based on the Prusa I3 design. The main relevant difference, as far as speed goes, seems to be that he's using a Titan Aero extruder. The guy who developed the skelestruder says he can also print at comparable speeds. I myself just today reached 200mm/sec, and I think there's hope for pushing it higher even with the stock Prusa I3 MK3 (upgraded to use the volcano), which is what I'm using at present. Since you also have a volcano, it would be great to get your input.

And how the final part quality goes? I mean i know you can go higher speed but that should affect the look of the part? For example if you print complex part, does it output a good and smooth detail finish?
And have you tried ABS?

I dont use volcano on MK3, just on ender3, and ender3 is bowden so it can go a bit faster due is lightweight at X axis but still i prefer direct drive

Prusa release stage was and is always a beta stage. So far I can see it on every product MK2, MK2MM, MK3 and I also expect it to see on the MK3MMU as-well. The thing I like is that the current product is getting improved, not only the next one. Means MK2 was improved, MK2MMU was improved and MK3 was also improved. But I also fully understand if people don't like that concept because nobody in reviews is talking about this. The only thing you see in the marketing are the awards.

I like to see other companies like CR are also providing replacement parts. I'm pretty sure there is a reason why CR products are so famous.

I like what prusa does and the way they do, theres always a way to fix things and they keep updating stuff and moving forward. I only think they should do better tests on a new product before release to public market. I will keep adquiring prusa products but now i have learn my lesson and only upgrade to a new model after the dust settle out and people got rid of early problems

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

And how the final part quality goes? I mean i know you can go higher speed but that should affect the look of the part? For example if you print complex part, does it output a good and smooth detail finish?
And have you tried ABS?

I dont use volcano on MK3, just on ender3, and ender3 is bowden so it can go a bit faster due is lightweight at X axis but still i prefer direct drive

Well, look at the photos and see what you think. You can save time by starting at the end of the thread and working backward.

I haven't tried ABS. Any particular reason you ask?

As you might guess, acceleration limits may preclude ever getting to fast speeds. That's why I said everywhere that it's possible.

PETG appears to print faster than PLA, which seems to be a surprise to most people.

Anyhow, I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. What I've done is transparent, though, because I've posted photos at each step along the way--both the good and the bad.

Maybe you want to try the speed test that DevilHunter posted on that thread on your Ender3? I'd be curious as to the results. AFAIK, it's pretty much a generic test.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

And how the final part quality goes? I mean i know you can go higher speed but that should affect the look of the part? For example if you print complex part, does it output a good and smooth detail finish?
And have you tried ABS?

I dont use volcano on MK3, just on ender3, and ender3 is bowden so it can go a bit faster due is lightweight at X axis but still i prefer direct drive

Well, look at the photos and see what you think. You can save time by starting at the end of the thread and working backward.

I haven't tried ABS. Any particular reason you ask?

As you might guess, acceleration limits may preclude ever getting to fast speeds. That's why I said everywhere that it's possible.

PETG appears to print faster than PLA, which seems to be a surprise to most people.

Anyhow, I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. What I've done is transparent, though, because I've posted photos at each step along the way--both the good and the bad.

Maybe you want to try the speed test that DevilHunter posted on that thread on your Ender3? I'd be curious as to the results. AFAIK, it's pretty much a generic test.

I ask about ABS because on small objects you need to wait for the layer cooldown before apply the new layer, so i guess you can't print abs at that speed.

Ok when i finish my ender3 mod i will join that test, need to wait for the new fans to complete v6.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

I ask about ABS because on small objects you need to wait for the layer cooldown before apply the new layer, so i guess you can't print abs at that speed.

Even without the cooldown requirement, small objects can't print at high speeds because they spend all their time rapidly accelerating in opposing directions. So, regardless of filament type, I wouldn't make any cliams to be printing small objects at high speed.

That said, the skelestruder should be able to print faster than the stock Prusa extruder, because the skelestruder has a much lower inertial mass. i.e. it can accelerate faster. Not sure about the masses involved with the Ender 3, but perhaps it would share that advantage also. On the other hand, maybe (?) the mass of the Ender 3 wheels would partially offset the lower mass of the extruder assembly.

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Please forgive my interruption but I have to say it is a pleasure to read this conversation between to knowledgeable people, at least from my perspective as I am a complete noob and when I receive the MK3 it will be my first 3d printer. Really appreciate the civil and somewhat detailed conversation. A lot of what you've said I agree with and the rest I have no clue 🙂

Thanks again!

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

I have brought a Ender 3, they are very cheap, and now i'm upgrading and fine tuning. Already installed volcano. Great printer for the money with small amount you can turn that printer into a 1000 € class printer

How does the print quality compare to a Prusa I3? I am concerned that the v-groove wheel design might be more wobbly than linear bearings. I will say, though, that the Ender price looks hard to beat for a metal framed kit.

Strangely, it seems like almost none of the 3D printers (except for Cetus and a few otherwise unremarkable outliers) use linear rails. Is it just a cost issue, or are there other reasons?

Well you can't compare them because it's a 160 eur VS 770 eur Printer, but as i said with some upgrades it can be as good as the MK3 with small money.
Frame is good and you need to tune it, some units don't come well built so never trust and do your checks before assembly. wobbly part is easy to fix, just take your time to inspect and adjust.
Quality wise it's very good out of the box you can read many reviews on the Internet, there are people printing minis with great detail and also big models with no problem. The most anoying part for new users are the no automatic bed level, and its hard to find a perfect balance, but this is easy fixed with a probe.

So what i recommend:

1) Upgrade v wheels to Extreme v wheels made of PC from Openbuilds (Can be found on aliexpress)
2) Print some Ender 3 mods to complete and improve the printer (See my collection here: https://www.thingiverse.com/sn4k3/collections/creality-ender-3 )
3) After get used to the machine upgrade the hotend for a V6 with volcano, buy the one i have inspected it work very good and perfect.
4) Buy EZABL or BLTouch for auto level
5) Buy motor smooth boards (Optional) if you dont go 6)
6) Upgrade to MKS Gen L with TMC drivers (Optional) and a filament sensor
7) If you feel that way upgrade extruder and use direct drive maybe. (Optional)
8) Buy flexplate

With all that mods you have a printer just as good or better than a prusa mk3 and much cheaper
The only bad part is the lack of dual Z, but is not that critical since you can make it horizontal with some adjusts but in the end is a dam of a value for such printer

Any chance of a description, or a link to one, on how to change the stock Ender 3 board to the mks gen L board with tmc drivers? I've already flashed the software and installed ABL/filament sensor from th3d so I'm aware of how to do that part.

Is it basically plug in the connectors, flash firmware, and set vrefs? If so, what should the vrefs be?

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Any chance of a description, or a link to one, on how to change the stock Ender 3 board to the mks gen L board with tmc drivers? I've already flashed the software and installed ABL/filament sensor from th3d so I'm aware of how to do that part.

Is it basically plug in the connectors, flash firmware, and set vrefs? If so, what should the vrefs be?

I dont know any link but people are doing that and is straight forward.
You can flash with th3d but you need to change the firmware and tell that you are using MKS GEN L or by default it will use CR Board...

Is it basically plug in the connectors, flash firmware, and set vrefs? Yes
vrefs depend on the motors, you can probe stock board motors vref and use the same there

Re: What's a good "second 3D printer" to print?

Build an i3 MK2 from scratch.

Tom S. did a guide on building the cheapest possible i3 mk2 clone from scratch.
https://toms3d.org/2017/02/23/building-cheapest-possible-prusa-i3-mk2/

LOL O'Dolly